Do you think that primary teachers should have a degree?

[Rumpel]

I am relying on the wealth of experience and strong opinions of all you Mnetters out there to discuss this topic so that I can see how the general opinion lies. TIA

storynanny has it in a nutshell. I wanted my children taught by teachers who were/are well educated rather than just well qualified. There is a world of difference between the two.

I find it extraordinary that this has been lost in what has become today's education. I have come across people with two masters degrees who cannot construct a grammatically correct sentence or convert a decimal to a fraction. Both things anyone accepted for a CertEd would have been able to do 50 years ago.

It does seem that the march for qualifications lost its way in the context of education and the importance of being well educated. I find it rather sad.

OP, a degree in what?

Almost all primary teachers have a BEd which means they don't just study a subject to degree level, but that they have also studied child development, teaching strategy, current law/syllabus/good practice in schools AND had a lot of teaching practice.

That is all pretty essential background stuff. They also have training in their main subject at degree level.

This should ensure that they are self motivated, hard working, quick thinkers etc etc.

Obviously - there are some individuals who can gain all of that experience without formally going through a degree, but how they can document and prove it I'm not sure. A degree is the way of getting some kind of level starting point for all new teachers to have the right kind of background.

The rationale of having non-qualified teachers is that it saves a load of money and means the govt. can deny a teaching crisis someone who has been working in school for a long time should have enough practical experience to work with the kids. The lessons are meant to be seen and work looked at by a qualified teacher as well, to make sure that everything is on track.

At my prep school we had individual specialised teachers for each subject, no overlap, some of the even had PhDs. I received a very high standard of education there, and it was mostly great, certainly my best school experience.

I did a BEd and studied history and linguistics for three years alongside students on the BA course. I attended the same lectures and seminars, completed the same assignments and sat the same exams. The difference being that I also attended lectures for the teaching element of my course and had to fit assignments around school experience and block placements.

Storynanny many of the teachers I know who trained pre teaching becoming a graduate profession "topped up" (basically a disertation) their diploma to a full degree it was certainly the case with the three teachers in my first school.

www.gov.uk/guidance/qualified-teacher-status-qts

Gwen, I you questioned why I know that most teachers have degrees. I just do! I speak to them and it's part of my job lol, I wouldn't say it without meaning it! Since the 20 odd years that I've been teaching, most teachers that I know have degrees.

I am not talking about my children's teachers. I am talking about colleagues. They all have degrees!

Yes. I am a TA who does literacy intervention as well as g and t at primary level. I am not a qualified teacher but I have an English degree and have found it very useful. Teachers should have a BEd as a starting point and an ongoing commitment to their own development.

Beaufort, thank you. My training involved learning how to teach all subjects including music and PE. I am worried about teacher training courses currently on offer. Of course teachers need a recognised level of education though.
As an aside, Mrz, my Cert Ed did involve dissertation, 2 actually, one in Education and one in my main subject.
When I became a senior teacher, SENCo, I did commence a "top up" for official degree status. However after 25 years of teaching at the time, it was a complete waste of my precious time and after 3 weeks of listening incredulously to a lecturer, I decided both my experience and initial training were more relevant to my job than a gown and a piece of paper!
New teachers with degrees seem to gain more from high quality in service training than from their initial training. In my experience that is, I am not generalising.
Not just confined to the teaching profession though, my ex husband always used to say that the accountancy graduates were poorly prepared for working in his place of work.

The only teachers I know without degrees are in private schools. In 20 years I have never met a teacher in state school without one.

"In 20 years I have never met a teacher in state school without one."

Again. How would you know unless you've seen the paper? They may be qualified teachers but with a certificate of education if they're older.

"Teachers should have a BEd as a starting point "

What about those who start as secondary teachers and then move to primary? They would have a subject degree and a PGCE. When I was on work experience (MANY years ago) I worked with a nursery teacher who had trained for secondary.

Pieceopurple, they will most likely be just the over 58 year olds as there were two routes into teaching up to the mid 70's. University followed by teacher training year or CertEd at a teacher training college which was often attached to a university.
Making me feel ancient! When did I get to be old enough to be an " old school" teacher?! I can still get down on the floor with infants though.

So you have QTS storynanny?

In my school about half the staff did PGCE primary and the others have BEds or BAs with QTS

I thought it was a bit of an irony that what you trained for is not where you end up!

A couple of my fellow Sen teachers are secondary trained. Our best teacher has no degree (and often feels embarrassed next to those with an MA.) our PhD teacher isn't really very good and none of our teaching assistants want to work with her.

It's not just about academic ability. At all!

I'm finding a fine art degree makes me very good in Sen as I learnt to be very resourceful, practical, visual and imaginative, think outside the box and have an eye for detail.

I am pretty sure most of my teachers were cert ed at primary school - in the 60's. One teacher to 30 children, no classroom assistants although the half a dozen children who struggled went to a special unit two mornings a week. At that time the half dozen brightest went up to the next class for Maths and English extension with the older children.

We were taught about apostrophes, did spelling bees, speech marks, subject and object, fractions, triangles, some algebra, etc. Best of all was the teacher who broke down Beowulf into language we could understand and told the story to enthralled eight year olds. She also introduced me to Christina Rossetti, TS Elliot and Streatfield and Narnia. My mother still knows her - she had a cert ed, not a degree.

It all went down hill shortly after that when walls and rules were swept away along with times tables and grammar. The high ground was lost forever because the next generations with degrees had no firm foundation relating to the basics.

CertEd is qualified teacher status yes. I have my ancient slip of paper from the old DES with my number on and telling me I am fully qualified! Hope nobody is about to tell me it doesn't count and I have been a fake teacher all my life!
Teachers, by the way, did you know that your number starts with the year your training commenced? Eg mine starts 75/...... Interesting fact of the day.

Beaufort, yes yes yes . I am not an old fogey who lives in the past by the way, I move with the times and the current "fad" .I am , however, very grateful for my initial training. Even if I never got to wear the outfit and throw my hat in the air!

I do remember doing an essay on my pgce about maths teaching, and finding an ofsted report that showed that often the best teachers of numeracy were those who had struggled with it themselves - as they knew it was hard so found ways to try to communicate it effectively to their students.

We need a degree in empathy I think to teach!

Some degrees are a lot more relevant to teaching than others. I recently worked with a girl who did a degree in retail management for 4 years, then a PGCE which turned her into a primary teacher.

I think allowing stuff like this is a bit of a slap in the face for people who do a degree solely in primary education. I don't see how 4 years' training can be condensed into one.

I do wonder what constitutes a "good teacher". One of my best teachers didn't have a degree but instilled in me (and many classmates) a lifelong love of learning for all subjects. He didn't get the best grades though so probably wouldn't be viewed as a great teacher.

Degrees? Meh! They give degrees out like sweeties now. It really isn't a benchmark of any kind of competency or expertise. I'd much rather see some kind of evidence that teachers, especially at primary level, have knowledge and enthusiasm for a spectrum of subjects. That would include STEM subjects which are very much neglected in early education with a knock on effect of a skill shortage for the economy later. Literacy is a must have - I can't believe some posters saying that a teacher might have poor spelling and grammar but still be a good teacher.

We do need to raise the profile of teaching. We have to be more selective, pay better, and offer improved conditions. I know very few teachers who are happy in their jobs. We're either recruiting the wrong people or we have created the wrong education system.

Ive a BA in an academic subject, a PGCE and an MA. I've been teaching 15 years. That means no pay increase for me unless i go the management route. And since im currently working around 45 hours a week part-time, with two small children that isnt even remotely possible. The pay-freeze has fucked me over so much ive friends working the 16 hrs a week with the top-up benefits bringing in more than i do working.