Do you think that primary teachers should have a degree?

[Rumpel]

I am relying on the wealth of experience and strong opinions of all you Mnetters out there to discuss this topic so that I can see how the general opinion lies. TIA

They're not hard either though. It's basic maths, but you need to think clearly under pressure and also there's a time limit.

I'm not a maths natural, I was nervous about the maths one, but passed it no bother.

Anyone who fails twice should be thinking again about teaching.

That's why if you don't pass within the first 3 attempts you can't retake for a set amount of time

On the BEd we also had maths and phonics exams in first year -not everyone passed

I passed the skills tests first time but did have to prep as some things I'd never come across in my own education and there's also a technique to passing

Sorry it was mentioned ages ago up thread but it really, really frustrates me when people bob on and say that Early Years teachers shouldn't need degrees as if they are in some way distinct from other teachers. Of course the material we cover is simple to us as adults but a hell of a lot of very complex conceptual thinking goes on in children's heads in order to come to terms with these building blocks and it takes a professionally trained person to lay and calibrate those foundations soundly and securely. Teaching eyfs is as complex as teaching an A level in its own way and needs to be recognised as such. Rant over!

Do you know that for a fact? Not economics degrees for example? Fewer than 20% of secondary maths teachers have maths degrees. Does your son's prep school state the exact maths qualification each teacher has been awarded?

That last post was for BeaufortBelle

Yes it did Iguanatail and I recall conversations with some of his junior school teachers. He's 21 now and I'm not going to out myself but I do know the facts relating to my child's education and find it a little extraordinary that you seek to imply that I don't.

I have looked at dozens and dozens of websites for schools, both independent and state (as this is one area that I oversee where I work) and have only ever seen one school (not well known at all) where they listed the exact subject qualification (rather than the level/type - BA (Hons.) PGCE and occasionally the university which awarded the qualification.

Yes, I find it more than a little extraordinary that you are aware of every degree subject awarded to each of your child's teachers. Did the school also state the class of degree?

Well I'm sure it's not an attack on you Beaufort but rather a reminder of how difficult it is in any school to get qualified staff. Private schools particularly, can be disingenuous about this.

I like to check the degrees and the awarding university at schools. It was an important criteria in comparing schools for DSs.

If a school is coy about the exact qualifications held by teachers ask.

I do not like to see teachers with B Ed teaching in a secondary school except perhaps in Yr 7 and 8. Quite a few teachers, especially Heads of Departments, at DSs private school have a PhD. They are good and well respected teachers as well.

Well the end result was 44IB points and a great deal of happiness. Yes, I do know that the maths teachers in the junior school had maths degrees,because I had conversations with them about their subject. I didn't crawl over quals generally but recall a comprehensive list of staff, uni, degree, etc.

Enough however. I was extremely pleased with the calibre of teaching compared to ds's state (outstanding) primary from which we removed him due to lack of academic rigour.

And yet the irony is that the best qualified teachers can also be the worst at the job.
I had a physics teacher who had a doctorate and was immensely well-respected in her field. She was utterly utterly crap as a teacher. I can think of several others like that as well.

My maths teacher on the other hand was absolutely amazing. And looking her up on my old school website, I see her qualification was a BSc from Bedford. Hardly considered a fabulous university, but that woman was utterly brilliant.

Being well-qualified and also good at teaching and also able to withstand piles of crap from every angle...? There are not that many about!

And frankly, the BSc could have been in any science subject after all.

Agree, my uncle has a PhD in a physics related field but couldn't engage anyone in his subject.

Sorry jumping in.

The best teacher my children ever had, by an absolute mile, didn't even have A level equivalents. She was a native French speaker and taught them French, in a class with lots of other children. It was a private after school class. The woman was brilliant at engaging the children, kept really good order and they learnt loads. So, I would say they don't always need a degree.

here in Canada i'm sure there are still a few teaching with a diploma as compared to a degree of course they would be older and well experienced. the general BA route plus 2 years of of an education program at the university is most common. there are a few universities that still offer the 4 year B ed.
both physiotherapy and speech therapy is at the master's level for entry to practice and I could see education going that route.
with the lack of employment in certain fields I have seen many of my childrens friends start by persuing their passion (poli sci or math degree) only to graduate to no jobs, so they continue to the masters level (hoping to ride out the economic storm) to then take a teaching degree.
but if your heart isn't in it, and your doing it for a "job" the results may show.

No I don't think primary teachers need to have a degree. Looks like I'm in the minority here though!

Absolutely definetly yes.

I would not want my children to be taught by a teacher without one.

I would not want my children to be taught by a teacher without one.

Even if she was as brilliant as the teacher my children had? Far better than the qualified teachers.

"Neither of my parents had a degree and they were both very successful primary teachers. (When they trained, the qualification they studied for was a diploma I believe)

It was perhaps harder to get onto a degree course in those days though?"

Yes, it was a certificate of education and there are probably still some older teachers who have this rather than a degree. Since then, teacher training colleges were associated with universities and the students get degrees, though they are no better than your parents' generation.

Thank you Thundercrackers for saying what I also think re: EYFS teachers. Plus am a bit perplexed: I've been teaching 23 years now, know lots of teachers very well and have yet to meet a teacher without a degree!

I want my children's teachers to be trained teachers

I am an expert (and acknowleged to be so) in several subjects- but I couldn't teach them. It's easy enough to acquire the facts. Harder to impart them!

"I've been teaching 23 years now, know lots of teachers very well and have yet to meet a teacher without a degree!"

How do you know? Have you seen the papers? They might have a certificate of education, but refer to it as a degree as that is the modern equivalent. My parents (now retired and in their 60s, but could still teach in theory) have certificates as do many of their generation.

By the time I started my training, 30 years ago, you needed to have a degree. That wasn't the first year. I doubt very much if there are many people still teaching who trained more than 35yrs ago.
There is the possibility of a school employing (at a much reduced salary) 'unqualified teachers' if they choose to.

Agree totally with thundercrackers about the early years. It's such a specialised area of teaching and needs proper training and ongoing learning. In lreland trainee teachers just moved from three year degree course to 4 years masters. But l agree that standards are lower. My mum of 80 left school at 16 but her standard of writing grammar spelling maths geography are higher than some general degree holders now. She seems so well educated with a font of knowledge and beautiful penmanship and organisation. She could also type at a rapid rate do shorthand at speed and speak fluent Irish.

Backforgood, I am one who trained 37 years ago, still teaching part time.
Yes in my day our qualification was called certificate of education (CertEd) rather than BEd. We trained hard for 3 years, needed good A levels to be accepted, had excellent lecturing in all areas and, most importantly, had many weeks of teaching experience.
I dont think my preparation was inferior to that of the present.
I have come across many teachers with excellent degrees with appalling literacy skills and have recently witnessed 2 fast track teachers incorrectly teaching phonics to infants.