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Original poster

PTA being dictated to by Governors

113 replies

carolbfd74 · 13/12/2015 23:35

Just a thought: does anyone know how much the school Governors are allowed to dictate exactly HOW the PTA are allowed to fundraise for the school? e.g. events allowed, sale of alcohol, prizes offered etc.? Just curious how much the Governors can "interfere"? Especially if a lot of them don't have children at the school.....? curious as to answers. x

OP posts:

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mrz · 20/12/2015 09:35

If they've made a loss where does the money come from? Members pockets?

tobysmum77 · 20/12/2015 10:14

I doubt that as its probably limited liability (rather worryingly I am a trustee of our PTA so should know for sure) but if a charity makes a loss and can't pay then it will be insolvent like any organisation. The suppliers can't just bill an entirely separate organisation.

It ultimately is absolutely appalling financial management. I've never thought about it before as the way ours is run this couldnt happen, there is always some money in the bank.

Have the trustees been removed and replaced?

mrz · 20/12/2015 10:21

The people involved acted with good intentions to provide an event for parents and children ...for some reason it didn't occur to them that providing everything free meant that all overheads would have to be paid for by the school ... As far as they were concerned they were giving their time freely ...naive ?

tobysmum77 · 20/12/2015 10:30

So is the PTA not a separate charity? With trustees? With being a trustee comes a whole range of responsibilities. Its utter incompetence/ insanity not naivity. Do they not have regular minuted meetings where things are agreed? I cannot imagine a situation where we would agree to spend more on an event than we had in the account, its as simple as that. In fact its arguably criminal - ordering a load of stuff you can't pay for and sending someone else the bill.

A PTA may offer a free event but then the PTA funds it with the money they have in their account. That's planned and budgeted for.

I really cannot get my head round it.

mrz · 20/12/2015 10:34

as a teacher I'm afraid I haven't got a clue about the structure or status of the group.
They arranged the event in the name of the school making bookings for the school and then the invoices arrived ...

tobysmum77 · 20/12/2015 10:48

So it isn't a proper PTA but a group of parents who randomly organised something and sent the school the bill. Tricky.... But needs tackling head on by the HT and governors. Whoever ordered the stuff is liable to pay legally but that's going to cause quite a storm I imagine. Surely the school has formal order forms and all proper formal orders would be on these anyway?

spanieleyes · 20/12/2015 11:02

Our PTFA runs some fundraising events that are specifically used to fund some non profit making events. So, for example the Christmas and summer fairs are major fund raising events, school discos either break even or make a small profit and the Christmas party is free and subsidised by the other fund raising events through the year. If an event does make a loss ( and it is hard to see how one could that wasn't specifically meant to!) then it would have to be subsidised by the events that make a profit. There is NO WAY the school would be liable for any costs incurred by the PTFA.

mrz · 20/12/2015 11:06

I don't know if they are "formal" I'm not involved
No schools do not have formal order forms for every service they use.

YeOldeTrout · 20/12/2015 11:20

bottles of wine are often given in for our tombolas, the wine tombola does very well as a fundraiser.

Not clear what OP means, we don't serve alcohol coz the parents might get rowdy

mrz · 20/12/2015 11:22

Just to be clear the group (not sure whether formal or informal) has been running for about ten years but prior to this event a new "committee" took over and they planned this to encourage more parents to get involved in school.
School was consulted about having a BBQ on the field after school and were happy to agree.
after that the new "committee" seem to have got carried away IMHO with costly results ...

tobysmum77 · 20/12/2015 15:57

When I worked in a school everything went on formal order forms. Perhaps that's unusual but to me it seems sensible.

Tbh it is rather worrying what you are describing and while it's fine to blame the committee the school management and the line they are creating between themselves and the 'PTA' also is called into question here.

OFSTED as you know these days is largely about management and this includes financial management. A group of parents blowing 800 quid on a barbeque that the school hadn't agreed but paid for sounds really dodgy to me to be honest. But perhaps I'm missing something.

mrz · 20/12/2015 16:15

So if I can buy books from a local shop for a tenth of the price they are from a company that accepts formal school purchase orders I should pay ten times as much rather than buy and hand in the receipt?

mrz · 20/12/2015 16:21

Sorry OP for the highjack

mrz · 20/12/2015 16:22

Obviously you are missing something as the auditor and Ofsted didn't have a problem with finances

tobysmum77 · 20/12/2015 16:30

Well it's up to the individual school to manage its finances in the way it sees fit. It may well be that having a strict policy of approved suppliers isn't appropriate either but there are risks to being more flexible..... I worked in a school a few years ago, before Amazon etc, things have changed. I also think it sounds like the relationship between the 'PTA' and the school hasn't been managed well with clear boundaries and roles.

I don't want to pretend I'm an expert in this type of thing because I'm not, I assumed they all ran like ours (other than we I believe raise more money than the average) and had their own legal identity separate to the school.

tobysmum77 · 20/12/2015 16:31

Well that's good news at least re the auditing.

mrz · 20/12/2015 16:53

I think it was more about the relationship between the old committe and the new committee, who refused to take advice from those who'd been doing the role for ten years.

AnneEyhtMeyer · 20/12/2015 17:30

PTAs regularly hold events that don't raise money - the ones that raise money pay for these "nice-to-haves".

For example, our PTA raises money at a big event we hold, plus Christmas and Summer fairs. Plus smaller amounts are raised by doing things like second-hand uniform sales, Christmas cards, tea towels etc. Refreshments at school events raise small amounts but are good advertising events for the PTA.

We then have a pot of money.

Some is spent on big things for the school, some medium things like replacing sports kit for a school team, some smaller things like art supplies for after-school clubs and the like.

Some is spent on providing free events - for example, we recently paid for every child to go on a school trip.

Some is saved in the bank to put towards larger purchases in the future.

All our accounts are audited each year by an accountant. I struggle to believe a situation could arise where a PTA would organise an event (free of charge or as a fundraising exercise) where a school could be left picking up the cost.

admission · 20/12/2015 20:31

A situation where the PTA arrange something and then land the school with a load of bills seems to me to be a situation which needs further investigation. Somebody must have been in charge and I would have thought that anything that went through the school as an order would have a formal order - if not then the internal financial procedures of the school are not up to scratch.
Is it possible that this was a free event that someone in authority at the school said they would cover any expenses and then it got totally out of hand?
As far as Ofsted giving any school a clean bill of health financially, sorry to any inspectors on here, but they generally have little financial experience and unless the figures are a very bright shade of red, they will not comment on them. As the governors of the school have responsibility for the finances of schools, this is an area where there is currently much discussion. How can Ofsted give any GB a good report if they do not investigate properly the finances of the school? This is going to become far more important as the squeeze is now on financially in many schools.

bojorojo · 20/12/2015 20:44

Normally, a fund raising PTA is a Charity and must submit the audited accounts to the Charities Commission - although some may be lax about that. Technically, if they make a loss, it is their problem. Not the problem of the school who will not formally have a budget for extra expense like this. If the PTA decided it was a get together and not a fund raiser, that is fine, but financially they are separate from the school. If the school pays for the mistakes, it is less money available to the children and, as a parent, I would be furious that the school used its resources to bail out the PTA. It is just not acceptable. Purchases by a PTA are also a separate entity. They are not expenses incurred by the school. Ofsted barely glance at school finance but our LA keeps a fairly close eye and definitely flags up problems for schools to address if there is cause for concern. The Governors should be aware first of course and if they are not keeping a close eye on finances then there will be problems.

mrz · 21/12/2015 06:20

Just to correct misunderstandings /confusion

The orders didn't go through the school but the invoices were handed to the school by the PTA (in all innocence they thought this was OK).

The PTA do have a separate account which is audited annually.

mrz · 21/12/2015 06:24

Are people suggesting that the local companies who orovided the goods and services in good faith should not be paid for an event enjoyed by parents and children?
I'm not sure they would provide services in the future if this is the case.

mrz · 21/12/2015 06:30

No admission no one in the school said that they would cover the cost but the new committee assumed this is what happened. They now know their error.

tobysmum77 · 21/12/2015 07:49

I can see its a difficult position but I dont think the school should pay personally. In the case of dd's very underfunded school they wouldn't have the money anyway. The dispute is with the PTA, which the only clean solution is for them to talk to the suppliers and arrange some fundraisers pdq/ ask the parents for donations.

mrz · 21/12/2015 10:22

A huge number of assumptions being made by posters I'm afraid.
Of course it was investigated! As soon as the issue was discovered the relevant people were informed ...

Of course the money wasn't taken from the LEA budget ...

Of course the Committee are now aware of their mistake and it won't be repeated!

Of course a pdq fundraiser would raise enough to cover the deficit ... I wish! A year of fundraising would be unlikely to raise that much.

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