PTA being dictated to by Governors

[carolbfd74]

Just a thought: does anyone know how much the school Governors are allowed to dictate exactly HOW the PTA are allowed to fundraise for the school? e.g. events allowed, sale of alcohol, prizes offered etc.? Just curious how much the Governors can "interfere"? Especially if a lot of them don't have children at the school.....? curious as to answers. x

Our governors did initially want to ban alcohol sales at PTA events. There was a big meeting with reasoned discussion and a vote from the governors which resulted in a compromise. Events with alcohol could be held as long as a request was made to the governors every time, the correct licences were held and they were adult only. An exception was made for the school fair bottle tombola, as long as winners were advised not to open bottles on the premises, and they couldn't be handed to children.

OP, please tell us if this hypothetical event is on school premises or not.

Someone said Often, when the cost of overtime for building management staff, cleaners etc are factored in, the PTA events cost the school as much as the event raises. And that doesn't include time spent by the HT smoothing ruffled feathers from 'PTA playground politics'.

I'm not sure where this pile of bollocks idea comes from, but it seems to have an anti-PTA agenda.

At our small primary (200 pupils), the last three events held on school property have netted £2400, £3600, and £1800.

The school waived the £60 letting fee for us to hold each event, and the only other cost was at one event where the caretaker had to come back for two hours (cost £50) to replace gym equipment in the hall. Members of the PTA did all the rest.

The PTA earned far more than the school spent.

As for playground politics...oh forget it. Your mind seems made up.

It's too easy to forget that the PTA, headteacher and staff, and governing body are all on the same side. It isn't about scoring points.

sprink I seem to have touched a nerve - I apologise.

Firstly, I should probably say that my experience is with much, much smaller primary schools than the one you refer to as small. These schools are not in an affluent area. The kind of figures you refer to are pie in the sky to the PTAs I have worked with.

Once the caretakers and cleaners time have been accounted for, the schools are lucky to see more than £100 per event.

And smaller communities often experience more frequent 'politics'. Parents of 200 pupils dilute disputes in a way that 50 or 60 parents cannot. In at least two cases I know of recently, the school business manager has been left to liaise with the Charities Commission and sort out the accounts when the PTA Committee fell apart and ceased to exist.

I agree entirely that the PTA, HT, staff and GB are all working to the same end - but they each have a specific and defined role and their expertise must be respected in order to ensure smooth running of the school. The HT is responsible for deciding what events and activities take place on school premises - the OP wanting to overrule that is not supportive or working together.

I teach in a similar sized primary to spink and our PTA events would be lucky to make a quarter of that (obviously going wrong somewhere) and much to staffs horror one event in the summer cost the school over £800.

There are never any cleaning bills from us, the deal is we leave the school how we found it and luckily we are still in the "caretaker who lives over the road and will pop in to lock up" scenario rather than outsourced to facilities management companies.

You don't have to outsource to a facilities management company to be landed with an overtime bill for cleaning up after a PTA event. Ridiculous.

we are still in the "caretaker who lives over the road and will pop in to lock up" scenario

Does he get paid to lock up after PTA events - or does the school rely on the goodwill of its local staff?
It's not a two minute job - a school needs to be checked throughout (Windows, fire risks, people hiding) before doors are locked!

Yes we don't "outsource" or even include the caretakers overtime in an costing.

mrz How on earth could a PTA event cost the school over £800??

Our primary doesn't charge us for caretaker or cleaning. We clean up after ourselves and put the school back as we found it. We are also 200 pupils and only have 1 or 2 events per year that raise anything like £1000. I'm impressed by spink

They held a BBQ on the school field and provided all food and hired porta loos and bouncy castles ... All free which the school were billed for

!!!

Wow. That is some breakdown in communication! How on earth did the PTA think that was helping?

Does he get paid to lock up after PTA events - or does the school rely on the goodwill of its local staff?
It's not a two minute job - a school needs to be checked throughout (Windows, fire risks, people hiding) before doors are locked!.

The entire school apart from the hall, kitchen (adults only), maybe one classroom and one set of toilets stays locked and out of bounds during out of hours events, so it probably doesn't take long. I don't know if she gets paid or not, but she is very cooperative about it provided we leave the place clean and tidy.

PTA events in very small schools are often used as a way of people meeting up and emphasising the "family" atmosphere so beloved by MN contributors. The costs for these events are disproportionately high when the actual amount of money raised is concerned. They can, however, be fun for the children and their families and most school PTAs like to run something, even if the amount gained is not great. It is not all about raising money!

A grammar school near me regularly gets £100,000 plus plus plus from parents but some quite big primaries barely get £2000 a year because they are in deprived areas. However, these parents and children can still enjoy a PTA event as much as the ones who raise £5000 per event because everyone attending is better off.

I think communication is key so everyone knows who pays for the caretaking taking account of any extra cleaning that is needed. As I said earlier, a member of SLT attending the PTA meetings is the best way to liaise and saves real problems occurring that were unforeseen.

Override the school's or governors' decision? No, the PTA is there to help the school, not to keep telling them they know best and will do what they please. Put your case for the event you want to them clearly and in a non-patronising way. If they still don't agree, you'll have to do it their way.

Think that everybody does need to understand their respective roles. The governing body is responsible for the vision, ethos and strategic direction of the school. This will include decisions around the policy of events at the school. So in this context, a decision that where children are present there will be no alcohol consumption but where it is an adult only event it is possible.
The head teacher is responsible for the day to day running of the school. So they have the final say on whether the event can take place on a certain date (caretaker available, nothing else on that day etc) and also whether it is an adults only event and therefore alcohol allowed or not.
The PTA is a totally separate charity, with their aim to raise funds for the school. However there should be totally separate management and the head teacher and governing body should certainly not be dictating to the PTA about how to organise events. There may be times when advice from the Head teacher is appropriate. However the PTA raise the funds and they can then do what they want with the funds. In most cases that is a joint discussion between head teacher and PTA to consider what would be most appropriate. It should certainly not be a diktat by the head teacher and even more not by the GB.

Mr Z!!!! While I am sometimes not in agreement of PTA being purely about raising money as opposed to providing memorable experiences for the children that is just utterly bizarre.....

PrettyBrightFireflies, yeah, it was a bit of a nerve you hit, and that's not your fault. Thanks for the apology.

I didn't like the idea that PTA loses money and has playground politics, as that's not been my experience.

I've chaired the PTA for three years, my husband has been vice-chair of governors for the same amount of time (he has very strong experience in education and government), and we have worked hard in our area (Cambridgeshire, which receives approximately £800 less per pupil than the national average). So I'm a bit touchy about my firm belief in PTA adding value to a school.

Your experience sounds awful, I'm sorry to hear it.

Because our county is under-funded, the whole school works very well together. We know we start from the bottom and have to make more than other areas.

In addition to the tireless work of PTA committee members we've adopted a strategy of structuring events to maximise donations (to include Gift Aid), seeking local and national sponsorship, and organising events that arein effectbegging for money. (Top tip: in a primary of 200, if you want to make a quick £1000+, hold a Sponsored Spellathon.)

Going back to the OP, I think she was just asking about possibilities rather than stating an intention to override decisions. This thread has shown each school is different. My advice is that it never hurts to ask.

Again, each body should work together. That's paramount.

An alcohol licence is cheap and easy to get.

All our PTA events are 100% led by parents. The governors have no influence on how we fundraise. We ensure we are insured and have a licence for each fundraiser. We regularly sell alcohol with a licence or using raffle tickets.

The school should claim the money back Mrs. That would never happen at my boys school. We raise 6k annually and the school can requests but not demand what the money is spent on .

Who are they going to claim it back from?

Small school (100 kids, 60 families) ... Cleaners? Caretaker?? I wish! We clean up the hall / kitchen and the HT cleans the loos / locks up as we leave.

The last few years we've raised a lot (well over £10k a year), but we're in a rural, not deprived but also not affluent area. A lot comes from local companies (don't want to out myself but there's 3 large organisations within our catchment that have to donate ££ to locals due to the impact they have), selling raffle tickets in the nearest town supermarket and a stonking summer fete which attracts hundreds ... And we clear up / lock up as above.

If we ran an event at a loss (and we do, for the benefit of the kids i.e. we do free events) then there's no way the school pays for that. To cost the school money is just madness - why are the school footing the bill?!?

If you run at a loss who does foot the bill?

Well the PTA foots the bill. I can't really see how an event could actually run at a loss anyway and such a massive one is . Surely the trustees of the charity are the ones ultimately responsible for such a cock up not the school.