SATs Expectations and Progress

[drsimonlee]

My bright daughter (IQ 140-50) received a 3a for reading, 3b for Maths and a 3C for Science at the end of Year 2. That was a little disappointing, especially the Reading side of things, given she can already cope well with the Lord of the Rings etc. However, I've been told the SATs test involves reading aloud, so she's working on that this year. Nevermind.

She improved from an assessment of 1b in Maths to 3c (5 sub-levels) from Year 1 to Year 2. This was good news. Her Science improved by a similar extent.

I have a meeting with the Head/class teacher next week to discuss expectations and progress (a meeting I initiated) and I wonder what I will ask them to achieve with my daughter this year? If the average child is improving two sub-levels a year on average (from what others say on this site) then is a whole level of progress a reasonable expectation? Obviously more would be desirable and I'm already thinking that 4 sub-levels would be great. It's pretty obvious that children will improve more in the early years so academic progress isn't linear (I understand this a former Uni. lecturer) but I'd still like to see progress commensurate with her general intelligence level.

It may come as a shock but the aim for schools is for every child to reach their potential.

mrsz in abstract theory, but not always in practice. You only need to look at what is the maximum achievement in the primary sats to know even the theory is flawed. Yes there are schools who will teach and cater to the needs of a child above the ceiling eg beyond level 3 in ks1, beyond level 6 in ks2, or even just to an outlier in that cohort. Dds did and it's not unique, but it's not the majority experience of many people with able kids from what I've heard. If a school won't do it of their own free will, then there isn't even any solid policy to support your case and make them.

Although I don't think it's applicable in ops case, as I doubt she'd have made the progress in the last year. And ops problem isn't the normal issue, i.e her dds already progressed beyond the specified max level for her age group and the school won't acknowledge it or teach her at it, she's still after the progress itself.

there are schools who will teach and cater to the needs of a child above the ceiling eg beyond level 3 in ks1, beyond level 6 in ks2,

but this isn't teaching to or catering to the needs of a child, this is just pandering to the vanity of a parent.

In ops case I agree charis

@DrSimonLee: if your DD is just starting yr3 then the demanding tests you want her to take to go to selecive schools are 3-3.5 yrs away, not 4 yrs. You need to get in touch with those schools to ask about roughly when in yr6 your DD would take them. There are private tutors in some areas to make sure your DD has covered the right material.

Really, Mrz?? You may be theoretically correct (I don't know), but I'd be grateful if you would show me how the system offers practical help for the most able reach their potential and how this help is accessed?

For a start, how do schools go about establishing how able the most able children are? IME both my children spent primary school experiencing a sort small step, long pause, small step, long pause approach to being educated.
DS1 is in the top set for everythign at an outstanding secodnary. At the end of year 7, he achieved level 7a in the maths exam. In year 8, his top set class had several pupils who took all year to reach 7A, so the work the whole class did related to level 7. I taught DS for a couple of weeks and he got 8A at the school's exams in February. Now, he's in year 9, and what do you imagine he'll be doing this year? Level 8 stuff obviously...!

Do you think this constitutes being allowed to "reach potential"?

OP, if you are indeed genuine, then I'm afraid you sound insufferable!

If your dd is the "natural" that you say she is, then surely there is no need for you to worry so much about her progress? Unless there are problems with her attitude, I'm which case, I would focus your efforts on addressing that.

Level 8 stuff obviously...!
Do you think this constitutes being allowed to "reach potential"?

reaching potential frequently means wider rather than further, it isn't in a child's interest to just go further and further and further. To what destination exactly? If already at level 8, great, there are now so many more things he can look at, enjoy, experience, understand, consolidate - without going further than level 8

Charis1 - further and wider. Completely agree. I asked the HOD about exactly this in July. His response?
"I do want all the students doing the same thing, but your DS can do extension work". I'd just told him that DS was already doing the extension work but was finding it unchallenging.

It seems to me that there's always a pat answer and I think I've heard them all. Honestly OP, don't pick this fight.

drsimonlee There's no point being concerned about levels/progress/grades in Year 6, it's too late then, the best places at the best schools are gone. wink For her intended Secondary, she'll have to complete tough entrance tests; and they only take the best, not those who simply pass. Those tests are a mere 4yrs away......

I did wonder. You do come across like a selective school parent i.e tutoring from reception onwards. I am surrounded by hundreds of such parents as I live in an 11 plus area with some of the top performing indies close by.

If a selective school is your goal, the tutoring you are doing may not give you the required outcome. Preparation for these schools has become a fine art and the people in the know simply work off tick sheets.

www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/forum/11plus/viewforum.php?f=64&sid=ed3c06155c89cc68513f1461b803f15c

Year 6 SATs results maybe important if you think you may need to appeal for a place at a selective school. In some cases very bright children loose out on an academically selective school place due to lack of exam technique or nerves on the day. In this case evidence would need to be provided to demonstrate that the DC normally worked at a level quite a bit higher than would be expected for their age.

Year 6 SATs results are sometimes used by secondary schools to set and monitor expected progress levels (take a look at the DfE performance tables, for example, they outline the ability intake for each year based on SATs results).

Personally I think the year 6 SATs results are more important than any other year. However, the children in my area do nothing to prepare for them (or at least that I am aware of) as all the preparation has been covered in the 11 plus and indie school tuition.

I would be interested to know why you felt you needed to pay for an IQ test to be done. Schools don't require them to select their intake and many selective schools (granted not all) do not administer entrance tests that would determine the IQ of a child. This suggests, to me at least, that the schools do not fee they are any use or relevance.

Pretty sure this is a wind up. Any parent of a "high IQ" kid knows that quoting a score is meaningless without the test name. That's why professionals and institutes use percentiles to express scores on a standardized manner.

This is one of my pet hates....parent getting their kids to do "IQ" tests on their ipads or whatever and whoop whoop they're gifted because they have a score of 2345 points and did well in the class spelling test

Nothing against gifted kids (I'm a 99.5%-ile myself) but have a lot against pushy parents who force this label on their child without recognising the complexities of having a child like this and treat them as accessories of sorts.

My DS is also very high IQ (also sister and father although to meet us we are a bunch of bumbling eccentrics ) - I extend him myself, no problem, also used an independent G&T specialist half a day per fortnight for a couple of years when he first started showing signs and I was worried he would have the same awful time starting school that I did (which he did!). Mensa has a strong G&T unit which I would recommend as a way to connect with others that have the goal of supporting a high IQ (top 2%) child's overall healthy happy development.

InternationalEspionage I extend him myself

my son seems to extend himself. He uses youtube to look into areas he is interested in and so far has taught himself web page design and some computer programming.

There have been occasions where he has covered particular areas of interest in Maths and he has come home and googled the subject area to learn more about it. He has done this independently and only told me about it afterwards (when showing me something he has found that has really sparked his enthusiasm).

He was in an English group who were working through the Hobbit at school and he had really got into. He came home and asked me to buy a copy for him, which I did. I always let him choose his own books in fact and simply leave him to get on with it.

I have never done any extra work with him outside school other than what the school has set.

He has had 11 plus tutoring (year 5 only). We just left him a schedule of what he needed to do each day and left the worksheets on his desk. When he got home from school he just went upstairs and did it which made things a lot less stressful. I know a lot of parents who were offering incentives and having constant battles with their DCs to do the 11 plus prep. as their DCs were just not interested.

Hello Mum , your DS sounds like he's comfortable with himself which is fantastic...also lucky you that he extends himself in a "helpful" direction, there's only so much mechanical deconstruction and Dr Who micro-trivia I can cope with before I have to channel studdyladder! Is he a visual learner? Sounds like it... I (and father and DS) all have hyperlexic streaks and independently self taught computer programming too. DS has just convinced me he's ready for robotics this Christmas. Great fun!

Unfortunately my primary school was rubbish; I was treated like an absolute freak and became very very introverted and socially awkward during my childhood. It sounds like you've raised a happy and great kid. I hope I can do as well for my son.

the aim for schools is for every child to reach their potential.

That's meaningless, unless you provide a good definition for 'potential' and gov/DfE/Ofsted/school-side isn't in a hurry to do that for some mysterious reason.

There are lots of obstacles, but the fundamental architecture of state schooling, age-not-stage, prevents these children from reaching the conventional dictionary-definition 'potential' we can see in them (without anyone cracking any whips).

InternationalEspionage ... Is he a visual learner? No idea tbh. I do believe in self directed learning though. If a child is genuinely interested in something they will put more effort into it.

I think Nurturing self directed learning will also benefit them when they get to the higher levels of education where this is very much expected of them.

To be clear, my son, although among the top academic performers in his year, is not THE top performer (perhaps top 20%). This is not unusual for an 11 plus area. Bear in mind plenty of people move into these areas once they realise their DC may have potential (or they think they can make them a genius by putting them into an academic sweat shop environment). As a result of this, DCs not only need to be academical able in the context of the local community, but in fact, in the context of the majority of the country.

Many children get a real shock when they start at an academically selective school as they have to work much harder to stand out and receive the praise and recognition they have become accustomed to.

If they have already been working all their spare hours to get into the school. They will need to continue to do so once in the school. Not so easy when the school insists in x number of extra curricular activities in order to make them a more rounded individual.

Hello Mum, I am 11 plus kid myself! And my primary school teacher mother insisted I got extra coaching for technique purposes too even though I had already been "diagnosed" years previously. I passed fine but ended up skipping the local grammar and went to a selective private.....I went from being top of my class to being in the middle (majority came from feeder prep school). Huge shock! Did me the world of good I think, I still remember the joy of finally coming top in the year for an exam about 4 whole years after starting there. Not good for kids to get too used to coming top without effort IMHO.

I'm overseas at the moment but possibly coming back soon and looking through that 11 plus website link you posted above with great interest, thanks!

InternationalEspionage sounds like your mother was well tuned into you as an individual and what would bring out the best in your academic performance. I don't envy teachers who are trying to achieve this with 25 - 30 kids at a time.

God, these poor kids are all going to end up bonkers.

DrTinkle God, these poor kids are all going to end up bonkers. Self-harming and eating disorders are not unheard of at selective schools, put it that way.

@var123, thankyou for your excellent post. She had a new teacher who is teaching her the basics from last year (e.g. counting up to 20 when she can add numbers in her head to 500) despite being furnished with written work to show this is a waste of time, that's part of the reason for the meeting. Yes, teachers do teach from the lowest ability upwards. Last year, her teacher split the class into groups so that the work they did, particularly in maths, was centred on ability. This year, there are 'fluid' mixed groups. We are lucky, she will go into a class next year staffed by a lady with an MSc in maths who loves her high achievers. The school in general has upped its maths game so that it could achieve an excellent HM award. Now its all about moving her work onwards, whatever unit of measurement one employs. She's top of the class and flying so there's no need to ground her and we suspect this would bore her mind and switch it off; she excels given a challenge.

The State sector suffers in many ways and that's why Britain has such a terrible literacy and numeracy record, not helped by stick in the mud parents and ' progressive' teachers. Britain won't make progress until attitudes change and expectations rise all round.

We are lucky, she will go into a class next year staffed by a lady with an MSc in maths who loves her high achievers.

She won't if they change the teaching staff around

not helped by stick in the mud parents and ' progressive' teachers.

Overly pushy, obnoxious parents, leads sometimes to rebellious, drop out children

The State sector suffers in many ways and that's why Britain has such a terrible literacy and numeracy record, not helped by stick in the mud parents and ' progressive' teachers. Britain won't make progress until attitudes change and expectations rise all round.

You really can't see how you are coming accross can you OP

You do know that teachers leave schools or are moved around year groups? There is little or no certainty now that your dd will have the excellent teacher next year.

I don't care how I'm coming across. I've started a fact supported by research. We spend three times the amount Poland does on education and our literacy and numeracy outcomes are worse. We're lagging behind nations that struggle to afford schools per se. These are hard facts, not opinions or worries about fitting in with the crowd. This is the reality and it starts at Primary.