SATs Expectations and Progress

[drsimonlee]

My bright daughter (IQ 140-50) received a 3a for reading, 3b for Maths and a 3C for Science at the end of Year 2. That was a little disappointing, especially the Reading side of things, given she can already cope well with the Lord of the Rings etc. However, I've been told the SATs test involves reading aloud, so she's working on that this year. Nevermind.

She improved from an assessment of 1b in Maths to 3c (5 sub-levels) from Year 1 to Year 2. This was good news. Her Science improved by a similar extent.

I have a meeting with the Head/class teacher next week to discuss expectations and progress (a meeting I initiated) and I wonder what I will ask them to achieve with my daughter this year? If the average child is improving two sub-levels a year on average (from what others say on this site) then is a whole level of progress a reasonable expectation? Obviously more would be desirable and I'm already thinking that 4 sub-levels would be great. It's pretty obvious that children will improve more in the early years so academic progress isn't linear (I understand this a former Uni. lecturer) but I'd still like to see progress commensurate with her general intelligence level.

I'm voting wind up too.

Your poor daughter

Make your mind up op. Either she's got such high ability she's capable of progressing 5 sub levels a year, or you're worried about passing secondary entrance exams. You can't have it both ways. And fwiw yes, you can get the best places at the best secondaries without getting your knickers in a twist 4 years before hand, if your child is such a 'natural'.

I wish people like you weren't real but my kids educations have taught me that this kind of obsessive behaviour is everywhere so I'll treat this as not a wind up. If she's got it, she's got it, if she doesn't, she doesn't, achievement under enormous pressure is not the same as natural achievement because they are talented, it's forced, and it risks the "knows it but doesn't understand it" problem that so many kids in this situation have. A truly bright child will always try their best and achieve accordingly.

You're putting too much on her IQ as well to be honest, IQ isn't the most accurate mark of general intelligence. It's just a test.

Obviously you want her to achieve her potential. But getting focused on asking the school to commit to non existent measures is not the way. If she says she is bored, or repeating work, have a quiet word with her teacher at that point. With the scores and progress that she has, they will have noticed she's reasonably bright.

Out of interest, why did you test her IQ? MENSA discourage doing so before age 7 at the very earliest, as results are too unstable and variable (and more usually done in the interest of the parent not the child).

If this isn't a wind-up, then it is probably one of the most ghastly examples of pushy parenting I have read.

Oh God, give the poor kid a break. If she's naturally clever she'll make lots of progress anyway. Getting hung up on exactly how many sub-levels is the very opposite of intelligent behaviour on your part. And however intelligent your daughter may be, you obsessing about her IQ and her levels will make her, at best, resentful, and at worst, very anxious. My mother was obsessed with academic success. I went to grammar school, got my 3 A grades and 2 S levels (back in the day!), got a first at a top flight university. My relationship with my mum, however, remains fucked up.

patriciaholm we had our DC's IQ tested by Potential Test to help us get appropriate teaching for our DC. In the same way that a DC with dyslexia or ADHD requires SEN so too do DC with extremely high IQ. One thing OP needs to realise about the entrance exams is that having a high IQ isn't enough to pass the entrance exams. Good exam techniques, time management, persistence, being articulate and emotionally mature also matter. The entrance exam questions are not rocket science and an extremely high IQ are no guarantee of success. A DC with an above average IQ who is a disciplined hard grafter would do as well if not better than a DC who has an extremely high IQ but is lazy.

But IQ has nothing to do with dyslexia or ADHD.

vodka I can see the sense in doing it to get an appropriate level of teaching if your very able dc isn't being stretched. However as ops dc has made progress in the last year then I don't see your reasons are applicable for op. Plus the fact at 3b or so in most schools her dd wouldn't exactly be an outlier who's needs may be overlooked. And in many schools would be one of many. I could understand it if they were assessing her only against lower levels, or even testing only up to a certain ceiling. But that doesn't seem to be the case.

Another one reading this thread like

Why on earth did you have her iq tested so young? What's to gain? Why not home school her if you're so concerned about levels? Sounds like you're doing plenty of work at home with her already.

You run the risk of turning her off school completely.

I'd focus on friendships, fun, experiencing things, extra curricular stuff, hobbies, having fun, playing.

God, my DS is in year 4 and I only paid passing attention to his levels in the year 2 SATS - and my dd has just started at grammar. At the age of 8 a child does not need to be pressured academically. You run the risk of making her v anxious and ruining your relationship with her.

You sound very very pushy. Back off and let her be a child.

If she is genuinely talented she will forge ahead and make progress, regardless of what you do.

There is competition in education every step of the way. Man is a competitive animal by nature and so too are the establishments he builds. Your children will be streamed (based on Primary grades) at most secondaries whether we like it or not and the grades that lead to that streaming were rooted in progress or the lack of it made years before. They may have to take entrance tests to join the very best schools; only the best will be admitted and those admitted will have been star performers for years. That's the reality. And so it goes on in the rest of life. It's always been easier to tread water at the top of the stream than swim upstream later on.

Yes of course competition is a reality, nobody can debate that, my children have gone/go to excellent schools themselves and my eldest is at Oxford, and I still think you're still being way OTT. The best schools and universities can tell the difference between the genuinely bright and the pressured to be the best/having obsessive parents, they're different things, they don't want the latter. They don't care about things like IQ for one, they want children with a good independent work ethic as well as good results, as well as a well rounded personality.

Like I said, there is a difference between knowing something because you've been forced too and truly understanding and being able to apply knowledge. You're setting your child up for a fall with this kind of behaviour.

Regardless of intelligence level, why wouldn't a parent want to maximise a child's ability in any field, academic, sport, social etc? And it's the job of our schools to do just his while the kids are in their care. That's a govt. objective you know! Letting the system take 'care of them' unquestioned (in the supposition that the best will simply rise to the top whatsoever) is a recipe for disaster and unaccomplished potential. We've admitted many to uni. who weren't the brightest but simply had the best grades. Sometimes, the brightest do get the best grades and that's a sheer joy, these kids make wonderful students. The safest approach is to make sure the brightest get the best grades every step of the way.

From 2016, tests will take place in the same subjects as before (mathematics, reading, and grammar, punctuation and spelling.) Each child will receive an overall result indicating whether or not he or she has achieved the required standard on the test. ( note no grade or level)

Results will be expressed and passed on to receiving schools as scaled scores. This ensures that performance can be reported from one year group to the next in a consistent way, having adjusted for any differences in difficulty of the test. It is expected that these (and TA in writing) will form the basis of value added calculations. In particular, they will be needed to show progress for more able pupils and those working below expected levels.

I'm a primary teacher and you need to recognise that a 4b is where you would expect the average year 6 child to be upon leaving primary.

At junior level you would only reasonably expect 2 sub levels as the jumps are harder to reach. Equally, your daughter won't have the maturity to reach 4b in year 3.

In fact, when I taught year 2, I was advised against levelling above a 3c as the maturity required for much higher is just not there.

Ps - 3c is just your regular more able year 2 kid. They will be aiming for a 3a upon leaving year 3

Sorry, that was just science, I see

Of course I want my children to succeed, who doesn't, but I want them to succeed, alone. Mastery skills are vitally important to success, you gain mastery skills by failing a bit and finding your own way, recognizing your mistakes and changing your approach in a structured way.

Teaching your child to work hard and to be able to be self critical in a healthy way is laying a far more solid foundation than harping on about their IQ and pushing them relentlessly/obsessing over levels/thinking working above her age is more important than anything else. "Making sure of everything" when they are a child is a recipe for a coddled adult who is incapable of sorting themselves out and being self motivated etc, if they want success they need to learn the value of it and how to get there themselves, we can do this in a guided and non pressurized way.

Don't confuse 'star performer' and 'hot housed'.
The reality is, that if your child is actually in that very top most able bracket, which I doubt or you wouldn't be worrying about secondary entrance or being the best in her primary , they don't need to be 'swimming upstream' at any point in the UK school system to get into the top sets or best schools. It's actually the other way round, making sure they don't lose interest, or their love of learning from 'treading water'. The absolute only problem for the most able in terms of academic grades and achievement is making sure they are given work that's suitable for mental stimulation. It's never a problem to get the best grades/ levels/ results available for their age group. Because by definition the most naturally able kids do that without trying. Including breezing entrance exams.

she's getting 3a/b/c, she is in the top 25%, she is doing fine. You say she achieves more at home, but NO child achieves independently in the class room what the achieve at home with parental support. Sounds like she has some way to go, before what she can do alone under her own steam catches up with what she can do at home with you breathing down her neck! This is normal, though, so don't worry.

Children are not streamed in secondary according to their primary grades, so don't worry about that, either.

You seem extremely anxious, you have nothing to worry about, she is in the top 25% and doing fine, and academic progress, whilst important, is by a long way NOT the most important aspect of childhood.

Sometimes, the brightest do get the best grades and that's a sheer joy, these kids make wonderful students.

Sometimes the parents push way too hard.

My DH to a very well known school on a scholarship. Just the type of school you want for your DD.

I have read him your posts and his words were you are pushing way too hard. If your child has 'natural talent' then she will make it. If his parents had pushed him the way you are your DD he would have rebelled and may not have go to go where he did.

You are in series danger imo of causing the opososite of what you want to achieve.

an IQ of 140 to 150 in a young child is nothing more than average for a person with "means". the list of activities you have provided pony riding swimming opportunities by the sea would allow ANY child to score those numbers.
I've sat in on testing, have had my children tested and loved the initial euphoria......be prepared she is average and expecting more will only lead to anxiety.

I agree with out2pasture, she is doing fine, she is scoring within in the top 25%, but non of her grades nor her IQ score are anything outside of ordinary. There is nthing here to indicate whether she is or isn't particularly bright, especially when you take into consideration the type of parenting she seems to have.

The IQ test result means nothing without the standard deviation for that particular assessor, and the levels are such a clumsy and inexact indicator too, they are nothing more than a guideline. So although she is clearly fine, with no problems, even saying she is within the top 25% might possibly not be that accurate. She is definitely above average, I think we can say, within the top 50%

State primary schools do not prepare children for independent, highly selective schools. Many of the teachers thoroughly disapprove of such schools, but in any case its not what the state pays them to do.

The state pays schools to provide an "education", and there is lots of playing about with by politicians as to what that actually means in between reception and GCSEs, which are taken in year 11. However, a sort of minimum standard seemed to be 5 GCSEs at level C or better.

A "C" at GCSE was roughly equivalent to a level 7 on the national curriculum scale. (Now there is a new GCSE grading system as well as a new school grading system).

Taking the (now abandoned) NC levels, when they were current, the state system required schools to have pupils make 2 NC levels progress per key stage. Each NC level was 3 sublevels.

So, in the 4 years of KS2, the schools were required to have every pupil make 6 sublevels of progress (1.5 levels per year) , and from year 1 to year 11 inclusive, they were required to make 7*3=21 sublevels of progress (2.1 on average).

For some pupils, this was an incredibly low target. For others, it represented a slight challenge and for some, it would turn out to be impossible. In a mixed ability primary school, children from all these ability ranges sit together in one class, and each successive class teacher has to try to progress each of them.

The problem with the state system, IMHO, is that it is weighted towards the needs of the less able. This was exemplified in policies such as "no child left behind" and "every child counts" which were both about ensuring the least able met the minimum standard. In contrast, all extra funding to meet the needs of the most able was cut about 6 or 7 years ago.

For the most able, better than minimum performance is expected, but it really is the luck of the draw how much help you get to get there. You don't need much help to achieve a little higher, so even without any extra help, your child will probably get levels of attainment that will described as "good grades/ levels that others would love to get", even if they are nowhere near your child's potential.

Having your child reach their potential is the holy grail for parents of G&T children, but I've no idea how you can obtain help with that within the state sector (or indeed the independent sector - but only because I have no experience of it).

There may be a new measurement system but the objective of 5 reasonable GCSEs after 11 years of study still remains.

What i can tell you is that if you approach the meeting saying things like you say in your OP, you will only set the school up against you. From then on, you'll be treated to a (highly effective) combined strategy of kicking the can down the road and talking in double speak when good does not mean good and progress does not mean progress. All of this intersperced with hints that you are hot-housing, that you are not providing a rounded childhood, that you have a warped value system etc. etc.

Its not worth it.