I know this has been done to death but will someone help me make the decision about private/state for my circumstances...

[ag123]

So DH and I live in North London. We have a ds, 3 and are expecting dc2 in September. We are both 30, DH is a lawyer in the city, I am a qualified primary school teacher and have worked part-time since ds was 1 but have just been given voluntary redundancy from Sept due to school restructure.

DH currently brings home about £4800 a month, mortgage is about £1500 a month, bills at least £500/month, groceries, petrol etc at least £800/month.

So ds is due to start nursery from Sept and has a place at both a local prep school and the very local state school and I keep swinging between which the right decision is.

The prep school is comparatively very good value at around £3000/term all the way through the school. They get very good results (a large proportion get into the grammars) and it had a very nice, non hot-housey atmosphere, with of course smaller class sizes.

Although it is comparatively good value, this will still be a stretch for us- an additional £800 a month we reckon and we will be losing my £1000/month salary ( we basically have no childcare costs) at the same time. There are certainly many areas that we could make savings in our lives...we don't live extravagantly but live well (i.e. Don't really think about how much we spend on shopping, go for meals out etc) so could easily cut back but not sure quite how good we'll be about that having not really had to do so before, and also lived near our overdraft limit even so the majority of the time.

The state school is very near and has a very good reputation. It is ofsted outstanding (multiple times in a row) but is positioned literally right at the side of one of the busiest roads in London and has very little outdoor space for sports etc. I also (as I'm sure lots of parents must do) think that ds might well be quite bright and I do worry about him being 'lost' in a class of 30 and not achieving his potential, especially as the catchment secondary school is AWFUL here so we would definitely be wanting to look to grammars.

I just can't decide whether it is worth the lifestyle sacrifice or not... Also since we are both relatively young there is quite a lot of scope for career progression for DH, and is it worth the sacrifice now if we can afford it a lot more comfortably in a few years time? I could work again part-time but don't want to be tied to it immediately and I'm not sure it would work logistically with the school run (a short car journey) to the possible prep school and we would have childcare cost for dc2 to factor in (my wage only just covered these between age 1-2 for ds). We are also considering having more than 2 children.

Anyway, sorry for such a long post, but does anyone have an opinion?!

I have a very clear idea of what goes on behind closed doors at my dss' primary school, CharlesRyder, having been involved in the recruitment of all the current senior staff and being there several times a week, helping in classrooms. I didn't look for idyllic when I chose their school. What a bizarre notion. I looked for somewhere where they would be happy, where they would enjoy learning, where they would learn a variety of things in a variety of ways, where they would not be bringing SATs papers home or having booster SATs lessons after school hours, where they would have plenty of free time outside of school to pursue other interests, rather than have school be the be-all and end-all of their lives and lots of homework/prep. I got that. Their school is in no way perfect, but it is plenty good enough and they love it.

(I got the happy bit, not the SATs papers! ).

I think early years approach and practice is really quite different from what goes on in KS1/2, tbh. I was very fortunate to have a state school available to me that taught in tiny groups (16-22 depending on intake) in YR and then went into larger classes for KS1 and 2. I think this is ideal, personally. Unfortunately the school has now expanded so that's no longer available but it was really the best of both worlds for us.

I would drill down a bit more into the leavers' destinations for Vita et Pax, if I were you. How many of those results are really worth the money? How many children in a year? How many children's schools aren't being listed? There are twenty odd children's results listed which sounds like a fair percentage of children might not have got something worth the outlay.

As for not meeting children's needs academically in a state environment, (this sounds like boasting, and it is not, I promise, just background), DD is 8 and in Y3 and currently working at the expected level of a child leaving primary school. Her needs are being met admirably. A good state school (which might or might not be rated Outstanding by Ofsted) can do really well for all its children, it's just that the definition of really well might vary by child.

I too have a very good idea what goes on in our state school. I have a great relationship with teachers and TAs and other staff. I work FT flexi hours yet am in school every term for a variety of productions, events etc. I am involved in the PTA and speak with loads of happy parents.

You can't really afford this. Certainly not with 3. My children's state primary is full of the children of lawyers and doctors who have decided the same thing(including mine). Enrol you son for after school sports class, support his reading, live your life and be happy. It also means your husband is not a slave to his job. When my husband (also lawyer) found himself in an impossible work situation, he could walk away from it. That was a freedom I couldn't put a price on.

If you have good state schools take advantage of them. I wouldn't even consider paying in your situation.

ag123: I don't think you can generalise about behaviour in state v private. the kids behaviour in the state school my child went to was exemplary. there are far more children with difficult behaviour issues in their current private school (I think parents send the children to the private school because they - wrongly - believe the state school could not cope with the children). probably depends on whether school selective or not.

We have just had to make the same choice as you and we have very similar circumstances. After much deliberation we went with our state option.

A few things helped us make up our mind:

1. We quizzed the head of the state school about leavers destinations. They send children to schools like nlcs and habs each year which impressed us given the are sought after selective schools.
2. The facilities at the state school are better than the prep options we had.

The class size does still worry us but on the plus size a class of 30 versus a class of 18 allows for more friendship.

I'd also ask yourself if you are happy to pay for secondary private education and or move to the catchment of a good secondary school. One of the best pieces of advise I was given re prep schools was from the head of a prep school similar to your prep option. I was asking about the proption of children who got into QE boys each year. The response was 'we send a couple of children to QE boys each year as do most prep schools. They are always the two brightest kids in a class full of bright hard working kids. Please don't send your child to this prep or any other north london prep assuming they will get into the local grammar schools. It is far harder to get into the super selective north london grammar schools than it is to get into any other school in the country'.

Also when looking at the schools kids get into at 11 make sure you account for duplicates. One school we looked at claimed to get children into DAO, NLCS and Henrietta Barnet. It turns out that one bright girl got into all three but the stats would make you believe that it was three separate.

Finally don't believe the popular north london opinion that its impossible to move from state to private at any other point than 3+. Hundreds of kids move from state to private throughout primary and again at 11. You could give the state option ago and move if you needed to.

Best of luck with your decision. I know how hard it in to make the choice for your firstborn.

Apologies for the typos. Trying to type with a sleeping baby in my arms!

That is fine and I'm genuinely happy for you rabbitstew and Mopmay but I maintain that you do not know the inner workings of a school unless you work in it. DH is a teacher too (independent senior) and we have 10 schools between us. In every single one there have been things that the school would not show to the parents. Anyway- that is an aside, the important thing is that you and your DC are happy.

Please do not think that there are not state schools out there that have become L2/ L4(L5) factories though. With the step up in expectations for statutory tests kicking in next year I predict 15/16 will be a particularly stressed out year.

I am not arguing that independent schools are wonderful- I am countering the 'there is no difference at EYFS' and 'preps are ALL exam factories' view. It is just not that straightforward.

I guess unless you actually work in your child's school you will never know exactly what goes on - but I wouldn't want to! I work in a public service role and similarly there are times when it's better that what goes on is behind closed doors; any workplace is the same.
I looked round 6 schools at the time of application. I did not see any behaviour anywhere that concerned me. I saw polite engaged children. I am sure some schools have a proportion of poorly behaved children on entry, but not all are full of 30 running wild.

CharlesRyder - believe me, I know more than I want to know about the inner workings of my children's school, as the person staff eventually confided in when the previous headteacher's reign became insupportable. I have seen the school warts and all and had to deal with the fallout, which was exceptionally stressful and unpleasant as someone who was also a parent with children at the school (especially since it was better for the school that other parents and the children should not know what was going on behind the scenes), and when you have spent as much time at the school as I have, they can't really hide the bad bits - especially not once they've spoken out loud about them. One of my siblings is also a teacher and I have made it my business to keep up to date with what is going on in primary education. I know that all the things you describe can and do go on in schools, and if they don't, that schools can and do have other issues. However, state education is a system I know. I know that with so much stress and pressure in the system and on the human beings working within it, that stress can be passed onto the children and the enjoyment of teaching and learning can suffer, but I also know that it is still possible NOT to offload that onto the children (unless the leadership is manipulative and bullying). I do agree with you, though, that the pressures on state schools are just ramping up and up, while funding effectively goes down, and this is depressing.

However, my family also has direct experience of just how much private schools try to cover up and that was one hell of a lot more shocking than what I experienced at my children's primary school, so forgive me if I don't think private school is necessarily an "idyllic" escape from the pressures on state schools!!! Frankly, I agree with Mopmay - you can know too much. Which is why I would never be stupid enough to think ANY school my children attended was providing an idyllic education.

OP can you really afford the school when you have 2 DC there at £6000 per term plus the extras? Have you factored in the cost of school uniforms? It's not bad if you can buy it all from M&S but school outfitters can be very expensive. What extra costs are there? Some schools, lunches, exams, books, clubs etc are all extra.
How far is the school in rush hour? Will your new born have to spend most of their early life in a car seat? You mentioned your local school was in walking distance, personally at this age this counts for a lot. You can walk back and forward to school talking to DC, rather than battling way through traffic. You can stop off with other local children for a play in a park.

How good are the school clubs? We have a small private school near us, which is fantastic academically, but not for all sports. I know good swimmers and rugby players are directed to there local clubs to progress.
Living in London can you not make use of all the free educational activities that are on at the weekends? We have been to fanastic free activities at the Science Museum when on holiday.
Think carefully!

Go for the state school, it's a no-brainer. We did this with a non-outstanding school and it worked out really well, we saved money, got to know the community well etc. I moved the dc at 7, as there was an utterly amazing private school even closer to our home that had its entry point then but I don't regret choosing state in any way. It is a LOT of money with 3 dc and not worth the stress, imo.

Partner in the next office to me dropped dead of heart attack at 42. The week before he'd been fretting about being sole earner, 3 kids at private school and mortgage. Think of the effect on whole family even if marginally "better" for kids on some levels.

Kerala, bit of a shock tactic! But I get what you mean.

My DH was a high flyer career wise, until he stepped out at age 38, narrowly avoiding a burnout/depression.

He was home for a few months, and now has a local job at 20% of his previous pay. Our kids are moving back to State school now, after Y6 (oldest started Y7 in State already, youngest has 1 more year to go).

Friend's DH got burn out and was home for 2 years (stress as kids were in private school, they and to beg the family for money).

I also know someone who became unemployed and had to pull their kids out.

It DOES happen. You need a big safety net, IMO, so jobless/burn out/sickness does not lead to having to pull your kids out straight away.

So my advice is to try state primary, to start with. Get a good savings back-up, and reconsider your options when your oldest is 8.

We moved out of London same jobs fewer hours less £ close to decent state options. Not right for everyone but suits us

I am in SE London. My exH, at the time we were applying for primary school places, was earning similar amount to your DH. We didn't get into ANY of the local state schools nearby and got allocated a crappy primary school 2 miles away. We figured if we were going to travel that distance, we will go private (which was 3 miles away and we were considering anyway).

So DS1 went into private for FOUR weeks! (and you know what? The 3-mile drive in that 4-week period almost drove me nuts, traffic was crazy) We got allocated a space in an excellent state primary just a walk away and had to make an overnight decision and at that time, we agonised about it and decided to go for the state option (we also had DS2) though we thought at the time, private was 'affordable' for us.

DS1 is now 7 and year 2 and absolutely thriving! And his brother just followed him this year into reception and loves school too. DS1 does karate and violin lessons with his school. Outside of school, he does swimming, ukulele lessons, cubs, gymnastics... Recently his school was also involved in a CBBC programme about the elections and it was an amazing experience. His head teacher is so good he was asked to 'mentor' this other new state primary nearby.

Also, unexpectedly, my ExH left me and the DCs and one of the first things I thought was 'thank f* we have no private school fees to pay for!' He is involved in their lives and lives nearby and pays a good child maintenance (which would have been essentially the equivalent, actually, slightly less, than the two sets of private school fees). I went back to work almost full-time as well. Between all that, we have enough money to ensure the DCs get everything they want in terms of extra-curricular activities and we both can afford to take them on nice holidays separately. If we had the two sets of fees to pay, the story would have been very different. So I do think you need to consider an unexpected change in circumstances as well. Not as in your DH leaving you but what if he was made redundant, could you go and get a job that would pay for all that more? Do you have enough savings as a buffer for unexpected events? Sorry, but I don't think your DH earns enough to cover two sets of private fees comfortably in the long run... Good luck with making your decision...

You're a qualified primary school teacher with aspirations to have 3+ children so presumably intend to be a SAHM for the foreseeable future? [Not meant judgmentally, I just can't see how you could work as a teacher with three small children and a DH who probably works long hours]

In my view you are more than capable than most [even with two other small ones running around] to support your eldest child and establish if he is achieving his full potential. If the outstanding state proves to be lacking then reconsider. £1000 is a lot to lose granted but offset against an additional £11k next year out of taxed income it starts to look a lot smaller.

3 children at private school is going to be unaffordable on your current income levels unless you also manage to get a job there and swing a huge deduction in fees.

Your husband might make partner and it all suddenly becomes more affordable but it will be at the cost of pretty much all family time at a large firm so be careful what you wish for.
mellicauli Sun 10-May-15 23:34:06 has it spot on

Our went to the local outstanding primary and move to independent for Y5 onwards. In retrospect we should have moved them in Y3, but on the other hand we did save a few years fees.
I would put him in the state, but keep a weather eye on his progress, and keep your option open to move him in Y3.

I do not no why anyone in their right mind would go private when they have a good state option available to them, especially at primary level, especially when they are not sure if they can afford it, and certainly cannot for more than one child.

I bet Op and her DH can work out between them if they can afford it or not. If OP works and is happy for her salary to go to fees they should be fine anyway. I don't know Bowes personally but the feedback I've heard is that it's neither fantastic not awful. Have been on a tour? Maybe ask on Muswell Hill Mums (Facebook group) for some feedback. If we had private schools closer to us I think that would be the way we would go but are leaning state to start with simply because I don't want to commute with a 4 year old. Vita looks like a great school. How long would it take you to get to?

Thank you so much for your comments everyone.
I think we have pretty much decided we're going to go state. Lots of your comments about the stress/burden DH would have to carry have particularly helped to make up our minds. I really don't want him to burn out. We would love to move out of London, so that is definitely an option for a few years time...the beginnings of a new thread there though as we cannot find where we'd like to go- family in Wiltshire/Wales so would like to go West but with DH working such long hours regularly and a commute involving not only getting into London at Paddington blur then having to get across to Farringdon, we can't see that being realistic twice daily certainly at present. We'll prob end up having to go North to Harpenden or somewhere like that, but I hear people move there for the schools so might be a good option!

Ag123, we ended up moving to Hants (family in Wilts/Devon) but our commuter station was Waterloo.

Paddington more of a bitch to commute to.

Good luck!

There is no academic advantage to sending children under 11 to private school. End of. I was told by someone who ought to know that it was research proven.