I know this has been done to death but will someone help me make the decision about private/state for my circumstances...

[ag123]

So DH and I live in North London. We have a ds, 3 and are expecting dc2 in September. We are both 30, DH is a lawyer in the city, I am a qualified primary school teacher and have worked part-time since ds was 1 but have just been given voluntary redundancy from Sept due to school restructure.

DH currently brings home about £4800 a month, mortgage is about £1500 a month, bills at least £500/month, groceries, petrol etc at least £800/month.

So ds is due to start nursery from Sept and has a place at both a local prep school and the very local state school and I keep swinging between which the right decision is.

The prep school is comparatively very good value at around £3000/term all the way through the school. They get very good results (a large proportion get into the grammars) and it had a very nice, non hot-housey atmosphere, with of course smaller class sizes.

Although it is comparatively good value, this will still be a stretch for us- an additional £800 a month we reckon and we will be losing my £1000/month salary ( we basically have no childcare costs) at the same time. There are certainly many areas that we could make savings in our lives...we don't live extravagantly but live well (i.e. Don't really think about how much we spend on shopping, go for meals out etc) so could easily cut back but not sure quite how good we'll be about that having not really had to do so before, and also lived near our overdraft limit even so the majority of the time.

The state school is very near and has a very good reputation. It is ofsted outstanding (multiple times in a row) but is positioned literally right at the side of one of the busiest roads in London and has very little outdoor space for sports etc. I also (as I'm sure lots of parents must do) think that ds might well be quite bright and I do worry about him being 'lost' in a class of 30 and not achieving his potential, especially as the catchment secondary school is AWFUL here so we would definitely be wanting to look to grammars.

I just can't decide whether it is worth the lifestyle sacrifice or not... Also since we are both relatively young there is quite a lot of scope for career progression for DH, and is it worth the sacrifice now if we can afford it a lot more comfortably in a few years time? I could work again part-time but don't want to be tied to it immediately and I'm not sure it would work logistically with the school run (a short car journey) to the possible prep school and we would have childcare cost for dc2 to factor in (my wage only just covered these between age 1-2 for ds). We are also considering having more than 2 children.

Anyway, sorry for such a long post, but does anyone have an opinion?!

Class sizes is an interesting one. DD (Y3) is currently in a class of 32. This is because her year was previously split into two classes of 18 (some children have since left, high churn London borough) but one teacher left part way through the year (genuinely unavoidable personal circumstances) and the decision was taken to combine the classes. DD is at the top end academically and found her class of 18 very very difficult personally as her peer group was pretty much non-existent - just her and one other (different children) in maths and literacy. She also had a tiny choice of friends with similar personalities and interests. Since moving to the larger class, she has come on in leaps and bounds and is just all around happier. It's better for friendships, better for sparking ideas off other children, better for having a larger peer group academically and also socially - there are just more like-minded children to choose from. A class of about 22-25 is fine, but I would avoid classes smaller than this like the plague from what we have experienced. I thought 32 might be really difficult but it's been quite the opposite from the children's perspective (I imagine the teacher has a lot to cope with though).

It's a state school, btw, and they don't seem to have problems coping with the wide range of personalities and abilities in the class. The teaching is fantastic.

I'd start with state and see how you feel - it sounds like two sets of fees could be a real stretch for you.

I moved child from state to private in Y3
State school was fantastic in loads of ways. Kids very happy. LOVED It being local. No homework in early years (YAY!). Poor facilities but able to compensate with after school stuff. Loads of friends. Great parent community. Great teachers.
Left school because it was having a crisis. Moved to (very oversubscribed) private school. Easy transition.

Very glad that we still have local friends as private school has very scattered intake (over two miles, state is over a tiny area). Have kept up with friends from infant school.
I would happily have kept child in state school if it had not had problems/instability. New school really nice but kids really don't need all that extra faff and attention when they're little, feel benefits far more obvious in KS2. In infants, they just want to play with friends.
Fees are not a problem for me. If they were would have persevered with the state school.
I'd say stick with local. Stay on waiting list for private in case it doesn't work out.

What are the two schools? Lots of N Londoners here who will know them. N London is a very odd area for schooling, it is not at all easy to transfer and good schools rarely have chance vacancies. Channing had one a few years back, I have a friend with a daughter in that class so she saw the girls who came in to try for it, I think there were 15 of the, for the one space.

You are looking at intense cramming and upwards of 10 applicants per place at 7 and 11 so don't underestimate that. If you can afford it, do prep from now but expect to also pay tutors for the 11+.

BTW 3,000 per term is very cheap for N London. Who owns the school. Is it part of a group? You can check its accounts on the charity commission website, it is not unheard of for small independent schools to go bust.

State, leaving lots of money for lovely extras then a tutor in year 4/5for the 11+.

The state school must have found a way round the lack of outdoor space to get an Outstanding- do they share with another school, perhaps?

Education is so much more than exam results

Which is the main reason I have my DS in a prep.

I'm afraid the focus of state primary schools is academic progress, academic progress, and, er, academic progress. There really isn't much room for anything else.

I don't want my DS to spend his afternoons in Y2 in SATs booster groups because he is August born. I don't want him to be in a school that cuts afternoon playtime for Y1 and 2 because they can't afford to lose the 20 minutes of 'learning time' a day. I don't want my him to spend Y6, and even the latter part of Y5, doing practise SATs papers every week. I don't want him to be in a school where there has to be an agenda point in a meeting to discuss how they will deal with children (in Y2 and 6) who are so nervous during SATs that they are sick.

I find state education a bit sad now.

private schools appear to be brilliant at extra curricular stuff.

comparent to the previous state school...
Masses more extra-curricular stuff...
Better art, better music, better games. So much better as to be incomparable. Better facilities, even though not all the facilities are brilliant. Better assemblies. etc

Our East London Primary provide the following after-school clubs

(I may have missed a few):

Fencing
Yoga
African Dance
Netball
Football
Hockey
Cricket
Coding
Circus Skills
Art
Choir
Orchestra
Lego
Sewing and Knitting
Tennis
Gardening
Athletics
Cookery

Ag, as a primary school teacher what do you think? So take your own children out of the equation. As an educational professional, what is your objective view? I am very curious because I am in a similar dilemma, but not a teacher, so feel white ignorant about what I am giving my children by sending them to an outstanding prep over an outstanding primary.

Did you teach private or state?

charlesrydet, What rubbish. None of what you describe happens in my DD's state school. It is outstanding rated and she is having a wonderful, rounded education. She is achieving academically and thriving socially. I have no idea what experience you have of state schools but to dismiss an entire sector of education in a sweeping statement is pretty absurd. As others have said, the issue for the OP is a choice between two specific schools.

How many state schools have you worked in Now? I have 15 years experience in primary education, including SLT posts.

All of my points are things I have actually witnessed- not conjecture.

Not all state schools are like that, though, CharlesRyder. Although I guess I can't speak for London... My dss' primary school experience has been very relaxed, with plenty of time for play, creativity and outdoor learning. It does help to have an outdoors to play and learn in, though! Not so much of that available in primary schools in London.

I would go for state primary and then private secondary. Even if you can just about afford it I think state primary offers so much- not least an understanding that not everyone is well off and this helps them be more likely to appreciate what they have. Having local friends from a more diverse range of backgrounds can only be a good thing and if you are a primary teacher you will be able to 'stretch ' your kids if they need that challenge and don't get it at school - although I suspect if it's had an outstanding rating on a number of occasions they will probably be very good at incorporating challenge for the more able?

Our state school is amazing - creative, fun, diverse, tons of extra curricular stuff, sports galore, music galore, brilliant wrap round care. Awesome teachers. Lovely support staff. 90 in a year so loads of opportunity to make friends. Very little homework. Relaxed uniform. Very High achieving confident children

DD's school is nothing like that! It's in London, too.

And as for extra-curricular clubs, she is doing or has done the following:

French (they also have lessons as normal curriculum, this was optional)
Art club
Science club
Tap
Street dance
Musical theatre
Orchestra
Choir
Chess club
Ballet
Maths club
Book club
Keyboard club
Karate

The only ones I paid for were Keyboard at £20 a term for two half hour group sessions, ballet at £5 a session (qualified ballet teacher), Karate at £10 a session and French (outside provider, £70 a term). There are a ton of others. There are a ton of sports clubs that she happens not to be interested it, all free. We don't have much outdoor space but we are lucky enough to be near a park which the school can use for these. They range through rugby, cross-country, basketball, netball, football and loads of others. Many clubs run before/after school and mean that parents can drop their children early or collect later and not pay for the privilege. Plus if I wanted it, there is wraparound care from 8 until 6 (not massively expensive but we are lucky enough not to need it).

This school is not rated Outstanding, but I think it's doing an outstanding job of providing high quality education and opportunities, personally. It's actually one of the less popular schools locally.

I work in a state funded early years setting and have been there since qualifying so have quite a limited view of things I realise.
The thing is, I think best practice (and I'm going to talk from an early years point of view) is best at meeting the needs of the broadest intake you are likely to have in state education. However, in all honesty I don't know if we are really ensuring that the more able children are really achieving everything they could...I mean, my setting (outstanding) is fantastic at helping children really develop their personal, social and emotional development and also their skills for learning- motivation, resilience etc but I just think if we had less children then we would also be able to concentrate more on knowing and developing their other abilities too.
Also, something that one of the teachers said on the open day at the prep school really reminded me of my own experience ( though very different as at secondary level) of moving from state to private. She said when she was teaching in state, so much more of her time was taken up with behaviour management whereas in a private school, purely because of the intake, the children are motivated and really want to learn...

We have gone the state school but supplementing with extra clubs and parental input route. Who knows?! Dh and I state educated and ended up Oxbridge and city lawyers so struggle to see how private school worth the huge outlay...

The anti state school contingent really have to make their minds up. State schools are either pits of mediocrity catering to the lowest common denominator where bright children are driven to arson by boredom (qua Jeremy Hardy) or used as unpaid teaching assistants or academic hothouses. They can't be both!

charlesryder I don't claim to have worked in any state schools. I'm saying that none of what you describe as "state education" or "the focus of state schools" happens in my DD's state school. I'm saying that to illustrate that such a sweeping statement about an entire sector can't possibly be accurate. Any I don't for a second think my DD's state school is the only one which manages to provide a rounded education. Your experience is that a private school is better for your DC than your state alternative. Fine. My experience is the opposite.

They can be both Hakluyt because if you are pumping all your core subject time and energy into pulling up the 'bubbling under' children then maybe your high flyers are spending quite a bit of time bored on 'independent reading'.

If the teachers spend every afternoon delivering intervention and non-core subjects are delivered to those not in booster groups by TAs then some children will be being pushed in R,W,M at the expense of a broad and balanced curriculum and the other children are being taught by someone untrained.

I know full well there are shit independent schools too. I'm really glad you have all found idyllic schools for your children to attend. I would suggest, however, that unless you have actually worked in them, you don't really know the detail of what goes on behind the doors.

In your shoes I would move out of London, let DH commute and you can settle in local community/state school/more green spaces all around.

TBH you don't sound convinced about either school, so look around a bit further afield. Just for comparison.

We are in a similar situation in North London with a 3 year old DS. If you are willing to mention the schools you will get much better feedback as it really does all come down to the particular school. And it helps to tone down the state vs. private fighting.

Ok, it's not 'popular' North London though so not sure if people will know them... The state school is Bowes Primary and the prep is Vita et Pax, Southgate...

If you are thinking about grammar I would start out in state and perhaps arrange for extra tuition to prepare for whatever exam you are aiming for at 11+. I have 2 in grammar who went to state primary. I prepared them both for the 11+ entry test without too many problems. No hothousing, endless practice papers etc.. A lot of DC at our local GS come from independent primaries however deputy head of the GS once told us that the DC from the indies are often spoonfed and find it hard to adjust. Good luck with whatever you decide..