Friend pushing her DD for 11+

[Hoppinggreen]

So my DD mght do the 11+ . She is working at a high level and her teachers say she should be able to do well.
However, DD has a friend called L. We are good friends with L's parents and socialise with them. L's mum is determined that her DD will also do the 11+ and asked if we couid share a tutor. I refused by saying that I had taken some advice a nd that the tutor we spoke to doesn't advise this ( this is technically true as the Tutor said that it probably wouldn't be in our DD's interest to share tuition unless the other child was at her level or above). We actually didn't use that Tutor as it turned out but decided to use a small group tutor instead. DD's mum has now enrolled her at the same place as DD.
All fine so far but I really dont think that L is going to get a a Grammar place.
Before everyone gets outraged this is the opinion of the Tutor, teachers and my DD who says L struggles and DD often helps her during the Tutoring.
In addition L is in the bottom group at school for both Maths and Literacy.
So why us this any of my business? Maybe it isn't but L is getting increasingly stressed about the exam and her mum is getting increasingly determined she is going to pass. She refuses to consider any other schools and tells L she will be going to the Grammar school with DD. To be honest WE don't even know that DD will go, she might not do well enough to get a place and we are also looking at other options.
So far I just smile and nod at my friend when she talks about how " our girls" will be going to The Grammar - should I just continue with that?
There is a mock exam coming up, I am considering suggesting she put L in for it ( with DD) so she can see for herself if L should continue to go for the 11+
For anyone who questions Tution in general we are doing it purely so DD is familiar with the exam but L's mum thinks it will somehow guarantee her a Grammar place.
I genuinely like both L and her Mum but can see them heading for a fall.

I don't think the OP is being nosey, or unkind. It isn't the OP's business, but the friend's mother is making it feel like her business by persistently talking about their girls ending up together at grammar school. OP I would try to steer clear of these conversations and just wait and see what happens, but if the subject keeps coming up you could just mention that you have Plan X and Y in case your DD doesn't pass the 11+, and what does L's mum have in mind in that situation? Lay it on a bit thick about you being concerned for your own DD's chances (after all, nothing is guaranteed) and hopefully she will concede that she does need a back-up plan. You could also mention what you are doing/saying to make sure your own DD doesn't feel under too much pressure. Your friend seems to follow your lead so hopefully she would here too.

Just to add, when I was growing up I was a very unsporty, shy, skinny but quite academic child. My mum's best friend's daughter was pretty, sporty, popular but not academic. Her mother continually berated her for not being able to read as well as me, not passing the 11+ like I did etc, failing to notice that she had a very driven, sporty, talented, likeable daughter. I liked this girl very much, but her mother's attitude made her very unhappy for a long time and made our friendship occasionally tricky. I think OP is right to be thinking how she can help here and not just abandoning her friend's child to being made to feel like a disappointment. OP is involved whether she wants to be or not so a bit of tact and diplomacy could really help this child.

Regarding mock tests. I can't help you now OP because the Sutton Mocks are already sold out. But for anyone reading this thread, thinking about the future, I highly recommend them.

mocktests.suttongrammar.sutton.sch.uk

They are run by the Sutton Grammar School PTA, and they have no hidden agenda besides raising a heck of a lot of money for the school. They give you a very good idea where your child lies competitively against other children who are seriously "going for it."

We signed up for these reluctantly, on the vociferous advice of a friend and had a real shock. Our DD who we are sure is very bright and whose teachers are sure is very bright, scored bang on average in the population of Sutton Mock test takers. It encouraged us to "pull our thumb out." We started helping her to fill in the gaps ourselves and finally hired a tutor who we liked. The 6 months up to the exams, she did about 4 hours a week of extra work, counting time with the tutor as well. It felt pushy but she is delighted to get into the school she really liked.

I am the proud owner of a level 6 shoo'in who failed.

And a 4s and 5 on a good day with a following wind who passed. Just saying.

"The only thing you should worry about is if you need a different tutor for DD if her friend is taking up too much of his attention in the sessions."

Yep. That's the attitude.

No, she wouldn't be helping because this child will do 11+ regardless of what anyone else thinks.
I've been through 11+ twice with my teens and have seen children taking the test who have never had any chance to begin with.

Keep out of it.
Why do you discuss other people's children's academic potential with your own child or indeed anyone?

Hak what's wrong with that? It's the only bit that's OP direct business. She can't worry about other peoples' kids as she has no say in how that are brought up.

Threads like these make me glad live in Scotland and really don't have much choice in high school -unless we go private.
Surely the 11+ was always meant to pick up the naturally bright children - the academic ones - not the ones the parents tutored to an exam extensively...
If they do get into the GS through extensively tutoring they are always going to struggle, be at the bottom of the classes, never do as well as the majority, never excel. Unless you carry on the tutoring throughout school just so they can keep afloat. Watching their class mates cruise and get 14 A*s and they feel like failures cos they worked their socks off and got 10. Friends going to Oxbridge and they scrape into 'just' a RG uni. It must be soul destroying for them and not good for their confidence.
In a less academic environment they will have a more grounded idea of their ability -and also are more likely to find areas where they excel.
Some children/people are just not academic - it doesn't mean they don't (as someone else up thread said about their friend) have strengths and skills that academic people don't have. It doesn't mean they can't have happy fulfilled lives. Even earn lots of money if that is your ambition for them. Lots of extremely successful people - entrepreneurs - don't have degrees...
(I have a Phd... in my life I have worked with very academic people and people with a maximum of 2 O levels. The highly intellectual ones often had absolutely no common sense...many of the much less qualified ones had it by the bucket load...)

I also know someone (private school) who is extremely intelligent...First from Oxford etc - when he left he had no idea what he wanted to do. In the end he ended up working in a job centre behind the counter. He did progress rapidly up the ranks and now is doing well for himself but more importantly last time I heard he seemed happy and settled etc...
And yes OP it is none of your business - and really feel for your DD's friend the blow to her confidence if she does indeed fail...but as someone else said don't put your DD in the same situation.

What is academic?

Is it kids lucky enough to be in a primary school that gets good results,or a child say gifted in science or maths or reading or a child steady but good at everything,or a child lucky enough to have very involved parents?

There is no one size fits all.

Like anything you can only do your best. My kids are in a primary in the lowest quintile for Eng and maths results but they had tutoring(we scrimped on other things,no fancy phones,gadgets etc here).If they were at a primary with stonking results or in a private prep like several they competed against I may not have bothered.

Would just like to say that via the 11+ curriculum,tutoring and mocks I have learnt more about what they can actually do,how they function as learners and seen them make more progress than during any of their primary schooling.Pretty sure grammar isn't for my youngest dc but giving her the same as I actually think it will have a positive impact on her schooling and our knowledge of her as a learner.We have told her that her other options are good,she doesn't need to pass and there are good and bad with either option.She's pretty chilled,adores her tutor and enjoyed the maj of her mock( the company we chose make a fuss of them and make it as positive and useful an exercise as possible).Belive you me having only been used to a coasting state primary as regards my dc it has been an eye opener and very useful.

The point being pretty sure I look I look like the pushiest mother from hell to onlookers but as regards 11+ Dd and I are pretty chilled.Op's friend and her dd may well be too in private.

I can relate to what you are saying LePetit. It's hard to judge other people and their family dynamics from the outside. It's so easy to project your hopes and fears onto them. And in a competitive environment even the most discrete people can get a little nosy.

I also agree that going through the process of bridging the gap my DD had between herself at a state primary and DC at more academic schools has been positive. We've been surprised by how much she is capable of. She's grown a lot in confidence too. For her, it's been a completely positive experience.

coffeebean where have I said that I have discussed someone else's child's academic potential? I mention it in my post as what HER mother has told me and DD mentioned she has had to help L but I have discussed this with NOBODY else and certainly not my daughter.
My only issue is the fact that her child is being pushed too hard and there is no back up plan but as somebody else rightly points out we will know about the Grammar places before we have to apply to other Secondaries so maybe it won't actually matter as there is time for a plan B at that point.

From your OP

All fine so far but I really dont think that L is going to get a a Grammar place.
Before everyone gets outraged this is the opinion of the Tutor, teachers and my DD who says L struggles and DD often helps her during the Tutoring

I posted that earlier, Coffee, but apparently it was a "total misquote" . No, I don't know how either...

I'm an 11+ tutor and I understand why you feel concern for your friend's DD, OP. I was concerned about a couple of my pupils this winter as they told me that they were 'stressed'. I kept talking to their parents in order to modify their expectations and I think you're right to mention your plan B. I have a friend whose daughter is right of the bottom of her year but was distraught that she wasn't selected for a highly academic college. I didn't feel able to comment other than pointing out the good points of her catchment school, she knows that I have a high pass rate but used a different tutor so I took that as a hint to butt out!

Obviously my DD doesn't have an opinion on whether her friend will get a Grammar place , she has no idea and that's how it should be - however I appreciate it might look as if I said that so apologies.
I meant that my DD says L struggles and she often helps her. She has also told my DD that she doesn't want to do it and it's too hard.
Any other opinions from teachers etc have come via L's mum.
Anyway, as advised I am butting out but will be supportive if required.
Oh and for the record if L gets a Grammar place and DD doesn't then good for them, we have a plan B (and c) and will be fine.

One child helping another during a tutoring session sounds off, tbh. How many children are in the group? I know group sessions can't be one to one (obviously!), but I wouldn't be happy for the "help" needed to be coming from anyone other than the tutor.

You say the mother tells you her daughter is in the bottom group, the tutor says she should look at other options but she is adamant her daughter is going to GS and won't fail. That just sounds like a load of rubbish. Very few mothers are that blinkered. Perhaps you should take a look in the mirror. You both have your daughters in tutor groups and are as equally as pushy (and competitive) or not as each other. I know one thing for sure I definitely wouldn't like or consider someone who has written half of what you have written as a 'friend'. Both your daughters have every right to have a shot at 11plus. You should worry about your own daughter and mind your own business.

There are either 2 or 3 in the group and 2 tutors who set individual work plus some work on a computer. Dd actually has slightly different work to L but apparently if L sits close enough she asks " what's xyz?" Or " how do you do x?"
I have no concerns about the quality of tutoring by the way as far as DD is concerned and L's mum thinks that it's good too. Dd actually enjoys going but I take them and L often says she doesn't want to go.
Anyway, as advised I am butting out.

Actually smischa I am not worried about my Dd in the slightest.
She wants to do the extra tutoring, I have told her she doesn't have to go if she doesn't want to. Doing the 11+ is an option we have discussed with her and she WANTS to try. The amount and type of tutoring she is getting is what a good friend has advised - this friend is a teacher at the Grammar who invigilates the exam and has 2 children there so I am happy to take her advice as I am pretty sure she must know what she is talkng about.
Many times I have told our DD that if she doesn't get a Grammar place then that's ok and as it's 1 exam on 1 day it may not even totally reflect her ability or effort - even the most academic child can have a bad day or panic in an exam and not do well. If DD doesn't get a Grammar place we are fine with that. We are pretty laid back about it and it's only 1 of the schools we are considering.
Of course everyone has a right to try the 11+, I just think that if your child does you should recognise that they might not get a place and I also don't think that you should force your child to do it and tell them that they will be going to that school - it's impossible to know that.

OP I think you're being a busy body. It's nobody's business but their own. By the way, you are tutoring for the test. If it was simply familiarisation it would be one or two holiday classes in August so the child has seen an example of each paper. Their is nothing wrong with tutoring, we are having our DC tutored for this September, but you need to be honest with yourself and don't dress it up any other way. Even prepping at home is tutoring, it's just the parents that do it are choosing not to outsource.

I would question your definition of the word "friend".

Your words and actions don't sound particularly friendly. Rather you sound like someone who has been caught up in the sport of competitive parenting. You sound superior, condescending and judgemental. None of those traits make for great friendship in my experience.

What your "friend" does about the education of her daughter is really none of your business. I'm guessing your friend is not an idiot? She must know what her daughter's chances are and like loads of parents do every year has decided to give it a go.

Not your problem!

It's none of your business.

You may be surprised, and this child is offered a place. The child may then be completely miserable as they are struggling and are in bottom sets.

I see it all the time - I have 3 DC and live in a grammar area.

It's none of my business whether other people tutor their DC or not, or offer them financial rewards/puppies/ cars if they are offered a grammar place. (The puppy reward didn't end well!)

Oh, and my DD is on the red table because she's dyslexic...teacher has told her if they did everything verbally she would be on the green table. Doesn't stop random parents presuming DD is thick.