Intimate care for reception age?

[onionlove]

Hiya everyone, quick question, my son did a messy poo at school and his TA rang me at work to clean him as she said she wasn't allowed to, does that sound right? I cant find a policy on their website, I work 1/2 hour away so my lovely neighbour went to him for me, I want to speak to school about it as I'm not happy but not sure what approach to take?

Although teachers cannot be expected to deal with toiletting, the school
Management should ensure that there is a policy, suitable staff and a place to deal with changing a child

I don't think you misled us OP, I think the thread has just meandered a little.

Poor boy, it is a horrible thing to happen and I am thankful that DD's school take it so much in their stride.

Woodhill this is about a toilet trained child having an accident, which is normal for a small child. Children in YR who have continence problems frequently don't have a SN/additional needs 'label' at this age precisely because it's not that unusual. I'd suggest you not seeing accidents is to do with you being around at lunchtimes when children have relatively free access to toilets, and are encouraged to wee at breaktime, have less to distract them, and possibly don't tell anyone if they do wet. There were 3 children on extra drinking in DD's Y1 class, which implies 10% of the class with some bladder continence problems.

I'm afraid at my school if it got to the point where a six or seven year old couldn't go to the toilet on their own they'd be asked to leave.

I'm not saying it's right, but it's the way it is.

Most infant schools keep spare pants and shorts but I doubt many have a supply of clean T shirts. A child cannot be left all day in a poo stained T shirt perhaps that's why the call was made.

I have taught in small schools where there is no TA for some of the time and the head is also teaching. As a teacher I cannot leave the rest of the class unsupervised while I clean up a child covered in poo. A call home would be made in those circumstances.

I've never worked in a school where the secretary would be expected to clean up a child.

And also illegal I'm afraid Sparing

Sparing perhaps you're not familiar with the types of bowel problems that can affect children after potty training. (Lucky you). It's not uncommon for children this age to get into a vicious cycle of constipation and soiling. This is treated fairly easily once it's identified but it can take months or years to get under full control.

The children affected by this are from all ends of the ability spectrum and the vast majority are perfectly capable of using the toilet appropriately most of the time. Most are capable by age 5 or 6, of cleaning themselves up and putting soiled clothes into a bag, and changing. Also by this age they are usually embarrassed by the accidents and this means that they may have agreed a signal with the teacher to allow them to leave class quickly if they have bowel issues.

There may well be children with this problem at your dc's school, but you're quite rightly not aware as the child will need to be treated with confidentiality. This isn't an issue about potty training and mostly isn't associated with learning difficulties: purely a bowel problem.

The most difficult age for this problem is preschool and reception where children don't have the coordination or organisation to completely clean themselves up independently.

Wow, Sparing, I don't think I could send my children to a school that had such a policy.

The school my dds go to and the school my ds goes to both have a cupboard full of all clothes, including tshirts - in fact tshirts are probably the most used, because of drink spillages etc. Also the children all have a plain white tshirt for pe in their pe bags that could be changed into.

Woodhill at preschool a large proportion of children at 3 aren't toilet trained - they wouldn't be allowed to stipulate that a child had to be toilet trained by some randomly decided age, as all the children are developing at such different rates.

zzz I haven't said anything about the parents in my comments but what has changed in 15 years'.

hazey this was ths expectation in the 90s. I suppose alot more dcs go to nursery all day from babies as oppose to playgroup 3 mornings. I think it was changing when my ds left.

I understand about accidents but it is really difficult to leave the class, there was never any floating cover to take over.

Woodhill I agree there has been a trend towards later toilet training - there are more 3 year olds in nappies now than there were when my junior school children were toddlers even. But small children having occasional accidents, or more substantial ongoing medical problems with regular soiling, are a separate to this and not new problems.

I toilet trained around my 2nd birthday and toddled off to playgroup 3 mornings a week. I also wet my pants at school, age 6, just like DD did. If you are determined to put historical trends on it why focus on nurseries rather than, say, the huge increase in houses with downstairs loos in the last 30 years? Maybe children have too much ready access to loos now and don't learn to hold on

How do we know if there are more 3yo children in nappies now? How do we know that it isn't just that inclusive care and education has made them more visible because they used to be prevented from accessing settings?

We all have anecdotes, my own children were relatively late to train (nearly 4) but once they trained they were dry and clean day and night and have enough control to be able to accept a small delay in toilet availability. My friend's children trained in the day at 2 but for years after needed nappies at night and required a full on sprint tot he toilet the minute they felt the urge or they would have wet pants. I don't think it would be reasonable to extrapolate from that beyond maybe saying that we could have different views on what being toilet trained actually means.

I think if they are at nursery all day it may be easier for the nursery staff to have them in nappies. I don't know. I have definitely read about toilet training later.

Perhaps some parents are lazy and think it is the school's job. I remember listening to a phone in on BBC London about dc hardly talking at school and having not being able to use a knife and fork. Is that not allowed to be said?

Yes Gammon you may be right about the downstairs loo. Of course they have accidents and ds took years' to be dry at night. My aim was to get them dry in the day by 2.5 as it saved a fortune in nappies and was better for their skin. It was the expectation in the 90's.

What's this 'in the 90's' thing going on?

Why on earth would nursery staff want to keep dc in nappies?

Some people suggest that disposable nappies which lock away wetness is leading to toilet training later - reusable nappies allow a child to feel wet and uncomfortable and perhaps lead to the child becoming aware earlier. However, all children can have accidents once trained.

DD has SN in that she has a mild disability. She day-trained at 3y10m but at 5y11m is still in pull-ups at night. Her hormone hasn't kicked in yet maybe, or maybe it has as she has some dry nights, but she sleeps so deeply she doesn't wake when she needs a wee - even when her pull-up leaks and she is soaked . She's not ready to go pull-up free at night. Doesn't mean she's not toilet trained though.

She had a poo accident at school once. Her 1-1 TA told me she was not allowed to clean her but passed her wipes, etc from outside the cubicle and advised. I wasn't phoned, despite the TA knowing she would need a bath as she hadn't cleaned herself well (due to her disability she was unable to twist to wipe until recently). As I didn't know, I'd taken her bike to let her cycle home. By the time we were home she was red raw and screamed every time she did a wee or poo for the next 24 hours. Within a week she had an intimate care plan.

Woodhill do you spend much time in nurseries? I don't recognise the idea that staff would prefer nappies at all or be lazy about training, it's completely alien to our many years' experience of nursery. Why on earth would nursery preschool room staff be determined to keep DC in nappies while non-nursery preschool staff down the road refuse to even take them in nappies?!

No I am not right about the downstairs loo, that is my point. Children have always had accidents and probably always will do, irrespective of whether they go to nursery, preschool, have their own en suite or share an outdoor privy.

We wrote an intimate care policy when a child started who occasionally had accidents. It states that a member of staff who is assisted by another can clean and change a child with the parents permission.
It depends on how willing staff are. If they don't want to they don't have to.

I don't know if it is rosy backward glance syndrome, but I clearly remember children at primary school having loads of accidents, poo and wee, and the enormous 'knicker cupboard' next to the head's office, and this was in the 1970s.

No Gammon beyond that thank goodness :)

Yes there was definitely a cupboard full of clothing changes at the primary.

I still think having a downstairs loo does make it easier for child and mum but OOH you would have a potty downstairs.

I am sure the nurseries do an excellent job with dcs

thanks

Hi everyone, an update for you, I saw the Deputy Head this morning and told her what had happened, she said that the TA should have offered me the option to give her the permission to clean him up. She said she would reiterate the need for all teachers to do that in future. I don't know if I'm more upset that his TA knew that was an option and for some reason didn't want to help him, its just common decency I would have thought. I am sure they will do what she said but do you think I should put it in writing as I'm still a bit upset?

Op I'm glad you have clarified the situation and I'm sure it will be dealt with appropriately. I can understand how it's upset you....personally I'd leave it at that.... I'm not sure a letter is necessary now that you've addressed it with dep h.

I also remember a huge wooden 'tall boy' type cupboard in my ancient first school ....laden with spare pants and vests etc. I remember having to borrow a top once after dropping my dinner ....remember to this day it had Bay city Rollers on it