Working as a volunteer in school - challenging the teacher

[Jules2]

Here's a pithy subject for other parents and teachers - I really would like to hear from teachers. I've been volunteering in a Yr 6 class at my daughter's school and every week the teacher has made some kind of mistake - be it a grammatical error, spelling mistake or a mistake in Maths. One example was where she asked pupils to put 4 fractions in ascending order and she gave them the wrong answer. I'm not so quick at Maths myself but thought it was incorrect and worked it out after I left. English is my strong suit - I was a book editor and English graduate - so I do know my stuff. But what should I do? I don't want to embarrass a teacher (and she's not the only one) and this particular teacher can be quite defensive. Should I let these errors go? Or raise them discreetly after class - but when it may be too late? Teachers/parents - have you experienced this situation and what would you advise?

I agree with some of your comments - obviously not with all of them. I think it's important to remember that teachers are supposed to be role models for their pupils. Of course, there are occasions when any teacher will make a slip, whether it be a spelling or Maths question or whatever else - but it shouldn't be happening on a regular basis and a teacher should be able to admit when they've made a mistake and correct it. The Maths question I referred to had been set a couple of days before the children were marking it so the teacher wasn't working out her answer 'on the spot'. I am critical rather than 'judgemental' but I'll make no apology for that as my DD is in a school where their SATs results for 2014 fell by 10% to 63% for children achieving Level 4. This is a Haringey school which was inspected by Ofsted 7 years ago and deemed 'outstanding' then. In 2014 the school's results were the lowest of seven comparable schools in the area. Clearly, there are some issues to be dealt with in the school. I didn't volunteer with the aim of going into a classroom and 'inspecting' the teaching - but it's difficult to 'bite your tongue' when you know a child/children are being told something that's incorrect.

To Viviennemary: Thanks for suggesting I get a job (hope you weren't being sarcastic). Unfortunately, I have to be a part-time carer for my elderly father for the foreseeable future, which demands a lot of flexibility with my time. But I do have a few spare hours in the day to offer help in school. Thinking about my recent dealings with NHS staff and Adult Social Care in Slough only makes me more determined that my DD will acquire a good grasp of grammar and spelling (despite any poor teaching in her school years). I'm referring to the many poorly written and proofed letters and emails I've received from people working in the NHS and Social Services. You have to wonder how well they were taught at school, don't you?

I am a team leader. I have people of different grades in my team. We have had school and university aged work experience students in the team, interns, all sorts. I would be embarrassed if a work experience student pointed out a mistake I'd made, but I would certainly listen and certainly correct the mistake. I would rather create a culture where whatever 'level' a team member is, she is happy to speak up and contribute. And I certainly make mistakes in my work life.

I've been learning recently a bit about something called 'human factors' in different failures. For example, aircraft crashes caused becaus the pilot didn't notice something had changed on one of the instruments, but the junior co pilot had, but wouldn't speak up. Or a medical failure during surgery where the doctors were fixated on fixing unexpected bleeding, but didn't notice some other vital sign was declining - the nurse had noticed but didn't want to challenge the surgeon.

Clearly, spotting a teacher's spelling mistakes in a classroom is on a rather different scale, but I think the principle is the same. Surely, in order to create excellent educational outcomes, you want to create a culture where teachers welcome (appropriate, respectful) challenge on occasion, and 'junior' staff and volunteers feel confident to speak up, where appropriate.

As a volunteer, vestandknickers, I've been asked to assist children with correcting their written work and homework which, of course, involves grammar, spelling, etc. Difficult to do that if the answer a teacher is giving is the WRONG answer, don't you think? Even in Yr 6 most of the children defer to their teachers as 'knowing everything' so there isn't an atmosphere where they feel encouraged to speak up about errors.
I certainly wasn't critical of all the TAs in our school but I definitely feel they are inadequately trained and some are not up to the job. And, of course, maybe some of the TAs feel uncomfortable about challenging a teacher? That said, I'm fully aware of how poor the pay is, so perhaps it isn't viewed as being the important role it actually is. The role of the TA when my niece was at school in the late 1970s was more of an 'admin' role - now it seems they do much more teaching - at least, in our school that's the case.

Wigeon - thank you for sensible advice. Picking up on your ref to 'human factors' - before I had my DD I worked for a time as a medical secretary and would occasionally spot an error in a dictated letter, e.g. re drug dosage, or a couple times where a doctor referred to the wrong x-ray. I noticed these errors because I was previously an editor and because I'm nosy - I was interested in what I was typing up. I always raised the errors with the doctors concerned and it was always appreciated. It saved face for them, and hopefully prevented any serious outcomes. I should add that many doctors sign off letters without reading them through properly!
OK - a grammar or spelling mistake isn't going to cost a life - but what does always letting errors pass unremarked teach children? Not that it's OK to make mistakes now and again - but that it's OK not to check your work and OK not to speak up.

I'm afraid I don't think anyone would be very interested in the views of a volunteer. Suck it up and do whatever it is you have been asked to do.

I find this ^ attitude incredible Can't remember now who posted it. Shame on all those silly volunteers, giving up their time for free to help I volunteer at my DCs school and have never encountered such patronising, short-sighted opinions! I have 2 degrees, used to have a management position, so quite possibly have more qualifications than some^ of the teachers at my DC's school. However, I respect them and expect them to afford me the same level of respect as someone who gives enough of a shit to volunteer and, in some way, make their working day easier.
On the OP, yes, I would and I have pointed out teacher errors. A particular gem was "Think of something that always comes as a pear", written on the whiteboard

Ooh, some rogue italicising there!!

On a practical note, is a snubbed volunteer not a rather dangerous person to have around given that it is rather easy to become a governor?

Yes, governors are of course volunteers too.
I volunteer in a number of ways at school.
Hope I am not considered as poo on a shoe...

We don't have them here in Scotland - just to throw another spanner in the hierarchical works...

I dare not think what Trouble will say about governors.
I have a bad feeling though.....

I can't understand what everyone is so annoyed about, of course a teacher is more important than the volunteer.

Why oh why do we have to keep harping on about some roles being more 'important' than others?
What about a school community? Working as a team?
I wonder what those obsessed with 'position' actually think about the role of parents [or even children] within the school community.

Why oh why do we have to keep harping on about some roles being more 'important' than others?

Because they are...
A teacher spends all day every day with her class, and saying that a volunteer is equal to them in status I think is really quite offensive to somebody's job. You can think that volunteering is a good thing and brings a lot to the school, and say that volunteers should be treated well and still see that a teacher is a teacher, for God's sake!

I generally see people as equal while respecting their role be they the Head, the care taker, a volunteer, governor or parent.

Of course all people are equal, you are just being wide of the actual point.

A volunteer has a different role to a teacher, and that's not the huge insult that some people are making out to be. When they are both in the classroom, the teacher is more important. What's so offensive?

We agree that people have different roles.
I just don't use the word 'important' as much as you Annunziata.

Oops just notice the word important in one of my posts ...

But why are so you offended by it?

A volunteer and a teacher are in the same classroom, the teacher is in charge. Yes?

I think most volunteers know what their role is as do teachers and each respect each others roles.
No need to foot stamp and shout 'I'm in charge' .....

The teacher may be in charge but that does not mean the volunteer should never correct or make suggestions. In an appropriate manner of course.

All this talk of a teacher being in authority etc undervalues the volunteer, if is is construed as the volunteer should never question the teacher. The volunteer may even be more formally qualified than the teacher in some cases, I know of a retired head teacher who volunteers at a school.

Of course the teacher is in charge but this should include a level of professional it's which considers other people's advice.

^ professionalism. Typo.

Respect my authority
m.youtube.com/watch?v=k1vKDM7wfiA