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Strongly Christian harvest festival in non-faith school

128 replies

Hooliesmoolies · 01/10/2014 13:08

I am really annoyed about the Harvest festival at my child's school. The leadership of the school are strongly Christian and I am offended at the way they impose their own beliefs on my child's state school. I know that an act of worship is within the regulations, however the way it is implemented varies MASSIVELY across schools. And evidently, there is no choice because I live in London and so we are just lucky to have a good school at the end of the road. I'm not going to put my full rant here, but I am going to post this:

www.change.org/p/end-compulsory-worship-in-schools

For anyone who feels like me!!

OP posts:
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Galena · 01/10/2014 15:55

So, if you feel so strongly, did you ask for your child to be removed from the assembly?

Hooliesmoolies · 01/10/2014 16:24

I know that the school policy is that children can be opted out of assemblies and these collective celebrations, what does that teach the child about inclusion and community. The number of religious songs that are taught at the school is incredible. If I excluded my child from that she would miss out on a large amount of class ‘social’ activity.

OP posts:
Hooliesmoolies · 01/10/2014 16:25

Sorry - should read BUT what does that teach my child about inclusion and community. Smile

OP posts:
Galena · 01/10/2014 16:27

Well, either you view it as a social activity or a religious one. If it's social, I wouldn't worry too much about it. If it is religious, then remove your child. I don't know many children who have formed a lifelong Christian faith simply because they sang 'We plough the fields and scatter' once a year.

MarianneSolong · 01/10/2014 16:31

The recent Trojan Horse scandal was connected with the 'Islamicisation' of schools that were not designated faith schools.

This poster is pointing out that a similar process of 'Christian-isation' may take place at a school which is not Cof E or RC.

I'd want to contact the Governors to ask why one particular kind of Christianity was being heavily promoted in the school that didn't have any kind of formal religious affiliation.

Hooliesmoolies · 01/10/2014 16:33

Evidently Galena if it was as innocuous as 'We plough the fields and scatter' it wouldn't bother me. For me, the issue isn't how I see it, it is how the school treats it. It is the fact that a non-faith based school are turning this into a religious occasion which I object to.

OP posts:
ErrolTheDragon · 01/10/2014 16:37

Galena, that's too simplistic. Assemblies are an integral part of the social life of the school, withdrawal is not a satisfactory solution (mostly it's parents with a strong but different religion who withdraw their kids), but unfortunately all too often (as required by the anachronistic law) they also involve religious worship. They serve to normalize theistic religions as being inherently 'good', they subtly inculcate that there is a benevolent Creator god.

Schools should teach kids about all religions and world views - they should not be places of enforced worship.

ErrolTheDragon · 01/10/2014 16:42

Occasional 'cultural religious' assemblies aren't so bad - few people in reality object to Nativity plays or a more typical Harvest Festival, or seasonal celebrations from other faiths. But sounds like the OPs school is overstepping the mark - I take it that all the assemblies are Christian? The law certainly doesn't say that they all must be! (check the BHA website for details on collective worship regs if you don't already know them)

Doublethecuddles · 01/10/2014 17:13

The very simple message of a Harvest Festival is that we should share with those less fortunate than ourselves. What is wrong with teaching that?
This year our school collected for the local food bank.
OP were you present at the assembly?

Hooliesmoolies · 01/10/2014 17:20

Doublethecuddles I am not remotely against the Harvest festival. I am against the fact that my child's school turns it into a celebration and thanking of God at Harvest time. Evidently there is nothing wrong with teaching that we should share with those less fortunate than ourselves. But that is NOT a uniquely Christian message. It is a humanitarian one which I, as an atheist, strongly support and believe in. And yes I was present, it was at a local church, and parents were invited.

OP posts:
Pinkandpurplehairedlady · 01/10/2014 17:24

I think I'd be annoyed at a non-faith school making it into a religious thing rather than just being thankful they have food.

I have the opposite problem in that I send my children to a faith school and they only mentioned God once in the harvest festival service (held in a church).

ErrolTheDragon · 01/10/2014 17:25

Nothing wrong with that at all, but it's clear enough from the OPs posts that it wasn't that sort of event. I'm curious too what 'strongly christian' message it did contain though.

ErrolTheDragon · 01/10/2014 17:27

(sorry, I was responding to double)

Doublethecuddles · 01/10/2014 17:33

ErrolThe Dragon - so am I!
OP are school do cover other religions when it is appropriate. Every year the do Diwali and Chinese New Year.

ChocolateWombat · 01/10/2014 17:46

Yes, what exactly was the strong Christian message that you objected to?
Do you also object to Jesus in the nativity plays at Christmas? What about some hymns in assembly?

You can withdraw your child from this stuff if you really object. Or you could move your child to another school.

Many non-Church schools will have the local vicar come in and do an assembly or the school will be invited to the Church for something like Carols or Harvest. The school is joining in as the Church is part of the community that the school belong to. It doesn't seem surprising to me that if you go to a Harvest festival in a Church, that God will be mentioned. Were you surprised by this?
Why did you go and why did you let your Child go to a place which is clearly a place of worship if you disagree with it so much?

AuntieStella · 01/10/2014 17:57

Most schools cover the Christian festivals if Harvest, Christmas and Easter (Whitsun seem to have dropped off the list of late).

I would no more opt my DC out of those assemblies than I would from those marking the festivals of Eid, Diwali, Passover, Chinese New Year (and probably several others that elude me right now).

AmberTheCat · 01/10/2014 18:32

Harvest festival is my least favourite school event, for the same reason as you, OP. Nativity plays and the like I can see as part of the culture my kids are growing up in, and they rarely involve any direct worship. Harvest festivals, at my kids' school and many others, I suspect, are mainly about thanking a god that neither I nor my children believe in for the food they eat. I have no problem at all with the messages of sharing and helping people worse off than ourselves, but I'm unhappy with the religious framing of those messages.

Hooliesmoolies · 01/10/2014 20:05

Okay, so I had not intended to start a full discussion on this. I just wanted to share the petition. But, since this is a discussion board, evidently some people want to discuss. I can also understand how the limited information means that people fill in the gaps, sometimes correctly, sometimes incorrectly.

So, just get a few points straight and to just explain the background to the post. I have fond memories of the Harvest festival as a child. My state school celebrated autumn, thinking about where food comes from, giving and sharing. It provides a wonderful opportunity to consider the beauty of the natural world and the nature of the life cycle, and community. As an adult, I understand and respect that for people who believe in God, part of that, for them, is thanking God. However, in this day and age, I find it not only inappropriate but also disrespectful for a non-faith State school to make a school celebration largely about God, Christian or otherwise. Within the context of the schools Harvest festival, it meant that 75% of the songs that the children had been taught had a strongly 'God' driven message. These were not the old traditional faithfuls, but modern songs that included thanking God for the food in the shopping trolley. I think it is entirely appropriate to think about where food comes from, to think about community and sharing with that community if you are in a position to help others who might benefit from that. However, I do find it inappropriate to suggest that this type of community spirit is exclusively related to God or the worship of a God. I found the discussion of the bible and Jesus inappropriate. It was shared as fact, not as a basic set of beliefs. If my children were in a faith school, then fair enough, but they aren't.

That the 'assembly' takes place in a church, honestly I thought that this was because the school doesn't have a big enough space to get the year groups and parents together. And to the person that ask 'what did you expect' well, I have never been to an assembly held in a church. I have never been to a harvest 'service' in a church. So what I expected, not having experienced this before, was the reverend to welcome everyone, possibly to explain what they do in their religion, but I did not expect him to treat the event as though everyone in the school shared his beliefs. But as much as anything, I did not expect that the harvest songs the children had been taught at school would be so heavily religious. And to explain, that for me is when the message of the song is that it is God that we should thank for our food, and it is to God that we should be grateful at harvest time.

If the children were taken to celebrations of different religions, for example, one Christian celebration, one Muslim celebration, one Jewish celebration, I would support that. Although I myself do not believe in God, experiencing the faiths of others helps to foster understanding. However, as far as I am concerned, by insisting on focusing on one religion which happens to be the religion of some members of the school, the school are failing in their duty to educate my child about tolerance and inclusion and the real meaning of community, which is embracing difference. By forcing parents to withdraw their children from the assembly of a non-faith school because a Church of England God is placed at the centre of discussions of behaviour, community, morality and respect I personally find disgraceful. It excludes and alienates some members of the school community in a way that I feel is totally inappropriate. My child would hate being excluded from these key school events because she wants to belong.

A non-faith school should be about teaching religion, not imposing it. I know that it is a legal requirement for schools to include an act of worship, but there is a vast difference in how that is interpreted.

I do not object to the sharing of Christian stories as part of cultural understanding. I wish there was more sharing of other religious events and festivals because that would enhance understanding, and it would encourage thinking about religion, about beliefs and difference. But Christianity is not discussed as a belief, but as a fact. That I object to.

OP posts:
Doublethecuddles · 01/10/2014 22:28

How long has your child been at school? In our school Christian faith is taught more than others. Our religions are covered, but normally in the spring term. We have had parents come in and discuss with the children their beliefs.
We are not at a faith based school and living in Scotland, and do not need to include a daily act of worship.
In our school you would struggle in the Winter term, nativity play, Christmas parties, Christmas cards.
I have come to the conclusion that you will never agree with all school policies, but if you are happy with the majority, that's the best you are going to get!

newbieman1978 · 02/10/2014 10:58

I'm a Christian though I have a great deal of sympathy for the OP. Fundamentally Christianity is about drawing people to faith through free will and not imposing it on them. Much as I would love everyone to join my faith I have a great deal of respect for others who don't share my belief.

My personal view is that we should be an Anglican Christian state and that all areas of the state inculding schools should be run to a Christian ethos. I know however that this is my utopia not share by many other folk!

In reality I think there should be a moderately Christian approach in state non faith schools. I think that in general this is what you get in most schools.
Again I know some won't even want this and I can understand that but if you take away all Christian religious apsects from school I think you lose the 100's of years of history for which our country is based.

catkind · 02/10/2014 11:15

We've nailed our colours to the mast and officially withdrawn DS from religious observances or whatever the phrase is. We've been lucky, his school have been great about not excluding him from things unless it's necessary. They did ask us if it was okay for him to be in the nativity play, which we said fine to - after all, it's only a story and wasn't presented in a This Is What Really Happened way. They also got an okay from us for one song in a harvest festival. If it was as religion-heavy as yours OP we'd definitely have said no.

I think the only way this situation is going to be changed is if everyone who'd rather their schools don't impose Christianity actually withdraws them rather than just saying "oh it's a community thing". When even the local CofE school has over 50% other religions/none, if all those families withdrew their children the schools would through pure logistics have to think about other ways of doing things.

newbieman1978 · 02/10/2014 11:51

Catkind......

Parents would have to take their children out of CofE schools completely to avoid Christianity as it's part of the ethos and goes in to everything they do in school. Or is that what you mean, boycott CofE ?

I thought the whole idea of choice is that parents can choose a faith school if they want to.

catkind · 02/10/2014 11:57

Newbie, no, you can still withdraw children from acts of worship in a CofE school. I don't know if all the non-Christians at the school I was talking about chose it or just had no choice in this case, suspect the latter as there's a big shortage of places locally and it's "Requires Improvement" so the Christians who have priority are not choosing it. Funnily enough non-Christians don't get a look in at the "Outstanding" catholic school.

Doublethecuddles · 02/10/2014 12:17

Out of interest those of you who have withdrawn you child from religious observance at school do you still celebrate Christmas and Easter?

catkind · 02/10/2014 12:23

Speaking for our family, yes, double. Both celebrations predate Christianity by some way as celebrations of midwinter and spring. Bit annoying that the Christians renamed the midwinter festival, but we manage to live with that and explain to our children where the name came from. We want them to learn about religions, just not be asked to participate in them at least until they understand what it's all about and that there are alternatives. We were fine with DS being in a nativity play as it was just presented as a story, not "this is a true story and now let us pray".

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