is my DS bright or normal? Not a stealth boast

[doineedhelp]

So, i have 1 child, DS 3.5 years old. Everyone is always telling me how bright he is and that i need to make sure he goes to a good school or else he will get bored and fall behind etc, but as he is my 1 and only i have no idea if he is bright or a normal 3.5 year old.

He is obssesed with numbers and could count to 10 by 19months, he can currently count to over 100. Likewise he knows all of his alphabet, colours, shapes, can spell quite a few words on his own, is beginning to write letters and numbers and can do simple subtraction and addition using fingers etc.

So, is this normal or is he gifted as people keep telling me. I'm worried that if he is very bright then boredom at school will lead to bad behaviour eventually - why is there always something to worry about?

Any advice welcomed,

Timetoask I'm not sure why you quoted from my post, I read the post. The OP asked whether her DS was normal or bright and I answered that he was bright. She didn't say "is my child cleverer than yours?" or ask for a detailed comparison

I was simply illustrating that her child is bright but not freakishly unusual and there will in all likelihood be other children in his class who are also doing the things he can do (along with other children who can do none of them). If its relevant (which it isn't really) DS1 and Ds2 both started reading at age 2.5-3 and when they started school at age 4 (April and Late June birthdays) could both read at about level six spell some words, write (printing not joined up) and do some maths. They were not alone in their classes and whilst DS1 was and remained at/near the top, DS2 was in the middle of his class (and remains so). There's such a range at this age but for many it has very little bearing on how they ultimately do at school.

Counting before going to school is not unusual. However, counting doesn't always mean that the child has a concept of numbers. It's when a child can hand you a specific number on request or look at a small group and say how many are there that real understanding is taking place.

i'm not sure why you always end up using 'teacher voice' and treating people like twats mrz. a professional habit i guess.

I wasn't aware I was using "teacher voice" I simply tried to point out that me comparing my child or you comparing your child with the OPs child isn't the best measure of whether a child is bright or average or behind I'm sorry you don't like that fact

So what do suggest the OP does then to establish whether her child is bright, because obviously, according to national expectations of three year olds he's doing pretty well.

Timetoask Some of the children who start "reading" at reception have pushy parents that have been actively teaching them before arriving at school. What I am a little curious about is how OP came to know that "he can currently count to over 100. Likewise he knows all of his alphabet, colours, shapes, can spell quite a few words on his own, is beginning to write letters and numbers and can do simple subtraction and addition using fingers etc."

I can see where a child may randomly point to a shape, number, letter etc. and name it. However, to establish that they can count up to 100, know the alphabet, spell quite a few words and do simple subtraction and addition would surely take some level of investigation from the parent.

All I can say is that if he really is self taught in all these areas then he is not just bright but would likely be classed as G&T at school. If, however, he has been taught all of this by the OP, friends and relatives then he could be bright and a good school will be likely be able to ensure he achieves well academically.

Why does the OP need to do anything. That's the point - her son is doing well, he may be top of his reception class when he starts school or he may be bottom or some place in between but does it really make any difference? Telling the OP her child will be above any of the other children is misleading, it isn't a certainty by any means unless posters have a crystal ball.

mrz I have a genuine question, I had been under the impression that children normally learn to read before they learn to spell accurately. If a child can spell a fair amount of words correctly, would this suggest that they would be well on their way with regards to reading?

The reason I ask is reading is the only thing the OP has not mentioned.

Mumtrying I can't speak for the OP, but I think that if you gave a child who is into this sort of tick box learning, then what they can do can be quite obvious. My DC who is like this would sit in the car, unprompted, and count, e.g., all of the red cars we passed, or all of the lorries, for the whole journey. He could get to well over 100 doing this well before the age of 3. Likewise he drew and wrote and pointed out letters in signs and did basic maths with duplo blocks all completely unprompted. He placed a massive value on being able to do these things, and in showing them off. I honestly didn't particularly encourage any of this, although I am sure that his nursery suspected otherwise and I can't wait until his little brother starts there in a couple of weeks, so that they can see just how little he is able to do, and maybe remove me from their "pushy parents" list.

IMO it can be slightly harder to spot the more lateral thinkers, the children who are equally bright but place less value on knowledge for its own sake, but who are just engaged and inquisitive.

somesunnysunday this is the kind of thing my ds would do, on car journeys he would point out red cars, blue cars etc and just count for the sake of counting.

mumtrying Of course I have read him books with colours and shapes and numbers and letters etc and and as i said earlier he has had quite a few physical development issues and ill health so we haven't been able to do many physical activities, therefore puzzles and games and reading and nursery rhymes along with painting and pkaydoh etc have been the focus. So yes, I am helping him understand these things but honestly most of the initiation comes from him to the point that he baffles me sometimes that he thinks /will ask about this stuff.

Anyway I guess I will see in time how things pan out with him

SomeSunnySunday TBH it's the comment about spelling that intrigues me the most but only because she has made no mention of DSs ability to read.

I understand what you are saying about doing basic maths with building blocks and toys etc. However, OP has said that her DS was using their fingers. Is this quite common amongst children? My DSs naturally counted objects/toys etc. but never used their fingers until they were shown.

I should quickly add that I am not a teacher so these posts are purely down to curiosity.

doineedhelp as i said earlier he has had quite a few physical development issues and ill health so we haven't been able to do many physical activities this is quite interesting. My DS was quite advanced verbally (according to other people) but very reluctant to walk, in fact he was reluctant to move at all. He was particularly obsessed with numbers at a very early age and could count to 25 at 18 months old. If we walked down a road with houses on he would refuse to go past one until I had told him what the number was on the door. I have no doubt that his ability to count at this point was purely down to me teaching him the numbers.

However, he is now classed as G&T in maths at school due to his mental maths abilities so, as you have rightly said, time will tell and will hopefully reveal a very promising academic future for your DS.

mumtrying my ds also shouts out the house numbers as we pass, he will also seek out numbers on lampposts etc, it is as if he hones in on them.

The counting on hands things came from him using an app that I downloaded for him which had addition and subtraction (apples and pears on a tree) so yes he was shown.

I didn't think this post would cause so much interest or such differing opinions. Its reassuring to hear that other seemingly bright children are doing well at school though.

Yes, MumTryingHerBest, normally spelling lags slightly behind reading. Obviously in the very early stages with simple cvc words spelling is more straightforward but once words become longer/ more complex the gap is more apparent. However from what the OP has posted it seems her son has been learning by memorisation and hasn't been taught to blend segment words which would explain why.

doineedhelp Its reassuring to hear that other seemingly bright children are doing well at school though. TBH, other than the HV saying my DS was advanced vocally, no one ever suggested that my DS was bright. I didn't teach him to read, write, shapes, colours etc. In fact I have never done any extra work with him outside the basic homework set by the school. That said, I never had reason to whereas, as you have rightly said, what else can you do given your situation.

You have no reason to think that your DS is not bright, however, it is still early days and some of the seemingly brightest children in my DSs class, although still in top groups, are no longer the top performers IYSWIM.

Sounds like my ds at that age with the maths. He is still way ahead in maths at school. He's just about to start year 2.
Unfortunately he is not as interested now as he used to be (he used to adore maths and ask to do sums all the time) - he still prefers it to other 'work' but doesn't choose to do it as often. He is on the g and t list at school for maths and reading.

my ds was similar at that age except for the writing. He 4.3 now and about to start school.
Someone above asked how you know your DS could count to 100 and how he learnt. With my son it just 'sort of happened', the type of child ds is he wouldn't sit and learn anything he doesn't want to (its been a nightmare teaching him to get dressed for example which he has no interest in). With numbers i suppose when they are really young you tend to count when they are going up stairs for example. DS picked up counting to 20 at about 18 months and then just used to ask what was next and by about 2 he could count to well over 100. He was abit of a livewire and it was hard for me to get on with anything in the house, a couple a times I got him to count a large collection of items such as pegs from the peg bag just so he'd sit still for 5 mins. He's had a year at pre school and the teacher there has been doing the number bonds with him and i think counting on a number line, addition and subtraction, counting in 2, 5s and 10s. It said on his report he has real interest and will spend a long time on maths activities. I think DS is towards the top end but certainly not out of the ordinary, i've seen articles before about kids doing quadratic equations at that age!!

I know it sounds silly but i don't know if he can read or not. If i asked him to read something he wouldn't but theres been loads of times when we've been out or in the house and he's read a sign or something and i asked how he knew what it said and he said he just knows. Eg. last week there was a sign by the side of the road that said 'new road layout ahead' so not a common one and he was sitting in the back and said 'oh new road'.

I picked the local school which seems quite good anyway. There have a big intake of 3 classes and then after the first 6 weeks they get split into ability groups for phonics and numeracy. My friends DS who is currently at same school goes up with the year 1's for phonics as he's good at that subject.

My DS absolutely loves playing board games and has done for the age of about 2 so this make be something your DS likes OP.

With my DDs, they learned to read because their nursery had a trained Early Years teacher who was qualified to teach phonics. It wasn't pushed, it was offered to children who seemed interested. My DDs were and it definitely gave them a head start at school. Their primary was brilliant at differentiation and just carried on with structured phonics teaching from where they were.

I taught them bugger all, didn't have the energy as working full time - I just read to them every night. I still do even now they're 13 and 11.

i agree that kids can do this spontaneously - ds was reading numbers from a very early age with me being a bit like huh how do you know that? of course we had baby books with those kind of three apples, 2 cats type content and the a is for apple etc type ones - not because i'm a pushy parent but because that's just normal and what you do isn't it? in the same way as you count the buttons as you do up their coat and such. ds was counting and enjoyed doing the alphabet though i seem to remember he struggled with l,m,n,o,p and it was more like a fast mumbling of the word elemenopy

counting can and basic maths can also come up organically, eg. hey she's got 2 more than me or as my son was obsessed with the number 5 for ages (re: he wanted 5 olives, 5 biscuits, 5 whatever) and so would tell you no i need two more etc. i would say other than the reading he started to regress once he started school. i suspect for those who are that sort of organic or whatever you want to call it type learners school can sort of interrupt their process unless there's a lot of flexibility and freedom and observation of students doing it their way rather than just a fixed idea of now we're doing x, by strategy y and i'm judging it by criteria z.

where my son seemed bright as a pre schooler was in the kind of conversations he could engage you in and the kind of conclusions he could come to from his observations or those kind of cognitive leaps between a fact and a broader context or pattern. he has been out of school for nearly 7 months now and i see that organic learning and natural curiousity and big picture thinking and analysing returning.

honestly OP i'd say just keep talking to him. there are all sorts of theories about why/how/whatever children achieve but i really believe that a lot of it is just about someone talking to you and exploring your thoughts with you itms. i don't know about you but this is still the way i learn the most even now - by talking to people, having interesting discussions and having my thinking stretched or someone saying yeah but what about this and having to re-examine something from another angle.

reading and writing and basic maths really aren't rocket science for the majority of children so i wouldn't worry too much about that side of things. whether they learn at 3 or 7 it's a basic skill that the vast majority pick up when they're ready to. i suppose what i value as 'intelligence' is critical thinking, the ability to draw conclusions or theories from observations, to see patterns and engage in a bit of metathinking and to be able to include an ethical perspective within all that. clever isn't really about maths and reading for me it's about an ability to think and reason and engage and care. i don't 'teach' my son these things per se but i guess if that's who i am and who he has been been in dialogue with his whole life then it rubs off.

i haven't actually ever met a pushy parent in real life (though you read about them a lot on here) but i observe that some parents really talk to their children and engage in their interior worlds whereas some seem to see them as little things almost to be driven about and made to behave and be taught to read etc.

Counting is good but can he actually recognise the actual numbers and then put those into order?

He does sound bright imo - he will flourish at school

I think it is hard to conclude at such a young age if a child is bright or not.

It is often the case that those who are able to fly a helicopter at the age of 3 level out nicely by the time they teach the end of primary school.

DD2 was a good reader when she started nursery, probably because she enjoys books. (still does) realistically it will not make one jot of difference by the time she does her A levels. They all develop in their own time and at their own pace... Relax :-)

Goop and Wildebeest my 3.5yo counts to 20, recognises a few letters but that's all. The OP's child is clearly way ahead of mine in those respects and sounds very bright to me!

When my ds could recite the entire alphabet (learned from singing at age 2+)... I told his nursery teacher. He told me that being able to say the letters does not mean he know the alphabet...likewise counting to 10 -or 20... There is a whole load if understanding that goes with it for it to be classed as 'knowing the alphabet, it's order, the letters in relation to each other, what it means etc... In place of the A-Zs... It could easily have been a song with 26 animal sounds he was reciting... I hadn't thought of it that way before the discussion...

Wow this thread is still going... hmm not sure I'd try him out on a helicopter vanilla but I get your point He does more than just recite numbers and letters he understands the order and where they come etc so he knows 8 is bigger than 2 and so on.

I'm sure by a given age it will have levelled out and hopefully he wi have caught up physically with children his age. Thanks again everyone it has been an interesting thread

Ferguson - that's really useful info. Just started teaching my two their times tables.
Mandyandme- my dd is just like your ds. Also hypermobile and walked late. When people said how bright she was that was what I'd say to them. She just sat there and watched so I'd sing, talk and read to her.

I researched schools thoroughly and visited approximately 15 of them. Make sure you know when their visiting days are to plan now. We luckily got a school that focussed on gifted and talented (not saying she is) but thought that they would support her better academically.
They do differentiate in Reception, she and a few other kids ho to a different room for 20 mins or so for literacy and numeracy. I had the same worries about school as you do but she's been fine.At the end of Reception they said she could read all of the key words they're supposed to know by the end of yr 2, don't know how common that is though!

Keep answering questions, keep talking/singing/reading etc and he'll be fine.