Fraudulent application - number 1 on waiting list

[Baggin123]

Late June we reported a fraudulent application to the local authority admissions team. One boy has received a place in reception on the back of using his grand parents local address. We have identified the parents real address online by using electoral register and supplied the admissions team the information. The address used was the same address used to secure the boys place for nursery which is attached to the school. The electoral register shows the real address but also shows the Mother as a recent addition to the local address. So she is actually present on both addresses. This suggests they have been very clever to make sure they have covered their tracks.

The local admissions team thanked us for the information and said they shall investigate. However, everything time we ask for an update they say due to confidentiality they can not comment on the results of the investigation or even confirm they are still investigating. The only change we have noticed is on the electoral register the Mother is no longer present on the grandmothers local address, which seems odd.

Does anyone know how long the process takes to identify the fraud and then withdraw a place? We are finding this frustrating because our son is number 1 on the waiting list for this school. We are concerned because the Mother previously won her son a place in the nursery attached to the school using the grandmothers address and has had a year of the school thinking she lives at the local address and probably has had time to put her name down on utility bill and other documentation. Despite this we are confident they still live as a family unit at the address that would not win their son a place.

Any insight shared would be greatly appreciated.

I agree with spaniel. It was fraudulent and wrong. Not criticising you for reporting. But it is confidential and you need to stop badgering people to find out what the investigation has uncovered.

AbbieHoffmansAfro I agree with spaniel. It was fraudulent and wrong... I was with spanieleyes until they put not electoral registers.;-)

SoonToBeSix Op schools have their own procedures in ace to detect fraud

i work for hte police. We have our own procedures to detect crime. Doesn't mean we don't need it brought to our attention to start with or need witnesses !

No the OP doesn't know what the circumstances are but she does know that a possible fraud was committed and she reported it. The LA will investigate. They may decide in the child's favour. But that is not up to the OP. She just wants a fair and level playing ground and I cannot believe the accusations being thrown at her. The parents of the other child, if they have committed fraud, are in the wrong. Not her.

OP it may take a while. They may not be able to allocate the place in time for September. After the first hearing, if it is decided against the parents, they could lodge an appeal.

It is possible that someone like PH47 or Tiggytape or admissions will be alone soon. They are the experts in this area and the only ones you should listen to.

spanieleyes on, not electoral registers. Interesting this is what my local schools use to establish which address should be used on the application form. Obviously this is unique to the area I'm living in.

Sorry, I wasn't meaning to imply that the earier interest in electoral registars wasn't warranted but that any further investigations will take place by the council and NOT by the OP. She needs to move on and concentrate on finding a place, leaving the investigation to the council.

spanieleyes I apologise for misunderstanding. However, the OP was clearly asking what to expect next and made not reference to monitoring electoral registers, hence the reason I figured you were having a dig at them.

I'm not having a dig at anyone! I have no problems with the OP reporting her suspicions, nor in providing supporting evidence for them. I do think that, having made the report, she now needs to look at alternatives in case nothing comes of the investigation or she drops down the waiting list in the meantime. She can't hang around just hoping things go her way!

spanieleyes Apology still stands, I misunderstood what you were saying. and we are in complete agreement :-)

Pheww!!

You don't know all the details and you never will.
You have reported your suspicions.
The LA will carry out their investigations and make a decision accordingly.
When a place becomes available at the school, the child at the top of the list will be offered a place.

The OP is perfectly entitled and i would say must report what she considers a fraudulent application for a school place. What happens then is very dependent on what kind of school it is and also which LA you are in. If the school is its own admission authority then whilst the complaint will have been to the LA, it will be the school as the admission authority who will, probably with the help of the LA, who will be carry out the investigation as to whether there has been a fraudulent application. If the school is a community school then the LA is the admission authority and they will carry out the investigation.
Given that the alleged fraud was reported late June I would have expected that any investigation would have been carried out by the time the school broke up, let alone the middle of August. Because of confidentiality issues there is no way that the OP and "whistle blower" will be given any information about the outcome of the investigation. The only way they will get to find out is if it becomes public knowledge that this pupil has lost the place at the school.
If the pupil loses the place then the pupil at the top of the waiting list will be given the place. Legally the LA is responsible for holding the waiting list for all schools in the LA until the 31st December but in many LAs they devolve the waiting list and the offering of places to the school (and in schools that are their own admission authority definitely they offer the place via the LA). It is possible that the OP knew that they were top of the waiting list when they made the report of fraud but they cannot know that they have been top of the waiting list all the time of since (they may only assume that based on them being top at times they asked the question of the school or LA) and they cannot know whether a place has or has not been offered at the school in the same time period.
It is speculation about what has or will happen in the future and as others have said there may well be other reasons as to why this parent got a place at the school based on issues that have nothing to do with the address of the grand-parents and parents involved.

This makes me so angry as it brings back some memories! Op I have done exactly the same and totally agree with you. My dd almost lost out on her sibling place due to fraud and what, were we expected to just sit back and except it? I don't think so!

There was no way I was paying £250 per month in wrap around care so someone else could just lie! We applied as a out of catchment sibling so all those in catchment went ahead of us. Several of those we believed lied (schools had a huge history of fraud). I persisted with badgering the school to do address checks. As did others.

Myself and other applicants out of parish, threatened them with the ombudsmen and everything as the rumors around pre school about people lying were rife. You have no idea how frustrating it is if you've not been there!

I also did the electoral role check and I have friends who used facebook printouts and everything! In the end 5 people lost their place due to fraud and rightly so as that would have been 5 non catchment siblings who would have been split up from their brothers and sisters. We got the last place so would not have got in without our efforts.

I found the school and lea were quite "head in the sands" about it and tried to ignore it so you must persist. Our lea was rubbish about dealing with it and even said "what can we do"!!!

but once we threatened with reporting them for not properly investigating or following correct admission arrangements, they had to address the issue (they'd had the correct address for at least 6 months before doing anything).

I'd be onto the lea as it's them only that can withdraw the place (don't wait til school starts) but I'd want it in writing that they have received your info and that you'll be using it on appeal and contacting the relevant people.

My understanding with fraud though is that the place goes to whoever lost out at the time of application, which may not have been you.

"My understanding with fraud though is that the place goes to whoever lost out at the time of application, which may not have been you."

This is true, but if OP is correct that her DC is no1 on the waiting list, it is very likely that a fraudulent application (if there was one) has cost her child a place.

Also (if I read this right) it is a reception place in question. Unless the school used the new provisions when the Admissions Code was updated, there is no priority for children attending the nursery to enter reception. If there has been fraud, it would be far better for it to be deal with before the start of term so a child whose family has committed fraud does not actually start with a whole new cohort in reception and therefore be pulled out from the group, rather than move to a school they are properly qualified for at the start of YrR. Lots of DC do not attend their eventual school's nursery, and those at non-school nurseries scatter to a number of schools and make the transition just fine, because it is a natural breakpoint and is geared to making smooth transitions.

Sorry have not read all messages.
I wonder if there would be a point of appealing.

Our local admissions policy states that if there is evidence that a place would have been offered if the admission arrangements had complied with admissions law or had been correctly and impartially applied an appeal is likely to successful.

So in the event the application was fraudulent the child who lost out on the list should be able to get a place regardless of what happens with the fraudulent place.

It may be worth checking if this applies to your LEA as well. If your DC was the first one to lose out it may be worth it.

If it were me I would appeal. Even if the appeal is not successful it may offer reassurance that your concern about the possible fraud had been investigated..

Good luck OP!

You have no idea if it is fraud or not an quite rightly the lea have told you nothing.

I doubt you would be foot stamping as much if your child was not on the wait list.

Oh and electoral register shows nothing.

The electoral roll shows who is registered at the house doesn't it?. For council tax etc? which is exactly the information the application forms ask for as initial port of call.

Of course people can move out elsewhere etc but often cases like that are investigated further to ensure they're not renting or moving purely for schools etc.

Issues with electoral roll don't say there is fraud but it should ensure additional checks are made. Parents suddenly splitting up around admission time etc looks suspect, as does renting in area and owning elsewhere. Tbh, in our case, most of the people lying were well known and didn't even try to cover their tracks!

The fact is their can't be many reasons that are legit for having a different address on the form. We are not talking about someone who has got in further away using genuine address e.g kids in social or health categories.

Using grandparents address is unacceptable in all cases unless kids live there. Childcare issues, etc don't count. If the kids don't live there then it's fraud simple as. I'm guessing the mother is going to say she's split up with the father. It may be true but it warrants investigation if so as it's very convenient considering it must have been. the case 2 years ago when applying for pre school. I'm pretty sure the school parents who know the family would be aware if they we're separated etc.

If the parents are together then it certainly looks odd that the family is registered at an address elsewhere yet they all live with the grandparents...coincidence much!

Why would she get involved if it didn't affect her? Of course she wouldn't

holidaysarenice I doubt you would be foot stamping as much if your child was not on the wait list. and I'm sure you would happily take your DC to a failing school 3 miles from where you live if you believed that someone had actually lied to get a place at your preferred school located within walking distance of your house. I am sure, faced with this situation, you would simply sit on your hands whilst agreeing that it is quite right that the parents of that child should be exempt from following an admissions process that all the other parents followed.

jamtoast12 Tbh, in our case, most of the people lying were well known and didn't even try to cover their tracks! they most likely felt they didn't need to after all look at the number of people who have posted on this thread who appear to actually support using fraud to gain a school place.