Is it normal for 'challenging' children to receive rewards when they are just doing what is normal and expected behaviour of the rest of the class?

[SafeAsHouses]

Hope my question doesnt offend anyone....but it just seems to be happening alot recently in my sons class, and its tricky trying to explain to him why the kids that are disruptive and muck around in class (as per my DS, I know not everything kids say is strictly true!), seem to run out of school each week with stickers / rewards / child of the day etc, because they managed to do something that is expected of the rest of the class 100% of the time.

Surely there is a better, more fairer way to reward?

[youarewinning]

There is a large boys independent but mostly LA funded placed boarding school near me. A lot of the boys there are from middle and upper class families. Many have additional LD or learning needs. Some are behind purely because of truancy or poor behaviour having affected their education.
After a while of being in the school they boys recognise the root of their behaviour and change it themselves.
The school have an extremely positive ethos and rewards are huge - eg canoeing / sailing at the weekend.
These boys have already come from lives where they are given money but they have missed the love and attention that goes with it - eg the "we want to to achieve and when you do you'll get rewarded"

It's understanding that rewards in life become more than stickers and certificates but you have to start somewhere and start small. It's very hard to change or adapt your behaviour unless you can see a reason for it.

[youarewinning]

Or a quicker post than ^^ - I agree with RaRa

[roadwalker]

I would disagree that a sticker is an environmental adaptation and I spend my life adapting environments but if it works for your child fair enough
Looking at society as a whole I think it is fair to say that a system of rewards and punishment doesn't work

[roadwalker]

I would prefer schools to spend more time understanding the Childs stressors and looking at ways to reduce the stress
Gaining a sticker assumes the child has the capability and chooses to behave as they do
It may give a quick short term gain but without a deeper understanding of the child will not last
Our school seems to be able to get a lot out of children without resorting to stickers
They are good at looking for coping strategies

[HobbetInTheHeadlights]

Yes it's normal. How much of a problem it is really depends on the teacher IME.

The worst one was one of DS teacher - DS is generally well behaved but it does come harder than with him than his sisters.

He started playing up at end of one year early on in school - as he'd worked out if he did that then behaved later he'd get the rewards he wanted - worked too. We tried everything at home - where there were no problems - to stop this and whole experience was very upsetting. His teacher an TA blamed our parenting despite out parenting being fine or good rest of school year.


None of his other teacher's have had such issues with him. It wasn't a great year in either DS confidence or progress at school where he seemed to stop trying.

DD1 had been in a year group with this teacher teaching the other class in year group - and they'd been parental low level grumbling like the OP about rewards system. I'd dismissed them as lack of empathy for struggling DC or DC with SEN - but having had this teacher I think the issue was with how she was implementing the system.

[RaRaTheNoisyLion]

'Looking at society as a whole I think it is fair to say that a system of rewards and punishment doesn't work'

That makes no sense. It not only works but is the basis of behaviour.

Would you go to work with no reward? (By reward I mean not just money but pride, promotion prospects, a break from the kids, colleague company, learning opportunities etc.?)

Do you get up with no reward or sanction? Do you take your children to the GP for no reward or no fear of sanction?

The system only falls down when the TYPE of reward or sanction is wrong. So if you are highly talented in law, you are unlikely to seek out a job in McDonalds for example. And if you won the lottery, you might not even work in law as there is no consequence to NOT working at all. Though you might, if the reward was the challenge of such a job.

[ouryve]

A sticker is only a suitable adaptation if it is sufficient to encourage a child to climb that step that they may be avoiding, for whatever reason (eg distraction, impulse control, anger, boredom, disengagement). If the step is too high, then the sticker is pretty useless.

Little Johnny may think it funny to blow down the neck of the child in front of them, when the class is lining up. It's probable that a sticker given with cheerful approval may be enough to help him resist that urge. Freddy, OTOH, may have poor frustration tolerance and struggles with waiting in a line which is a sensory assault to him - Billy is standing too close behind him and nudging him and breathing loudly, while Bob, in front of him is wearing a jumper that hasn't been washed all week and is smelling a bit. On top of all that, standing around is making his legs ache. It becomes too much for him and he runs out of the room and hides under his coat. It takes more than a sticker to fix that.

[bialystockandbloom]

roadwalker done properly, rewards do reinforce behaviour. But you're absolutely right, those rewards need to be carefully tailored to what the specific child finds most rewarding. Stickers don't really work with my ds either (asd), but other things do - eg pasta jars, tick charts with chosen prize at the end. When he was younger and we were toilet training, it was more tangible rewards like raisins, cheerios etc. We just had to work out what really floated his boat most at the time.

But, crucially, done properly, rewards wouldn't be dangled beforehand like a carrot - they wouldn't be mentioned to the child beforehand in a "if you do this, you'll get that" way. That just sets up pressure for the child, fear of failure etc. We didn't say to ds before he attempted the toilet "if you go, you'll get a raisin", and if he didn't manage to go we just did nothing. But when he did go, then he got massively rewarded.

And, as you say, in many cases the behaviour is beyond the child at that particular point. Which is why schools/support staff should be simultaneously working on teaching those skills at the same time. I do agree with you that rewards on their own are often going to be pointless with nothing else in place to teach and support the child.

So as the teaching progresses and the child masters whatever skill it is (eg sitting on carpet), then the reward is given. An ongoing process, with constantly monitored targets.

Sadly it rarely happens this way.

[anitasmall]

SafeAsHouses,

It is not right that some challenging, SEN children receive stickers, rewards every week (at some schools daily!?) while just average children are left out. Let's not forget: most of the kids are just normal, average.


Some parents advised to explain it to our children that they have additional needs and it is much harder for them to achieve things. I really would like to see that adult who can explain it to a 4 years old child that it is beneficial for the class/society to support them with stickers, goodies, awards.

I liked that system that somebody mentioned where children took home letters to their parents about their (only mediocre?) achievements. Lets say "he is the only child who knows how to tie a shoe lace", "beautiful, neat writing"

[fanjoforthemammaries7850]

"Most of the kids are just normal"

[AmberLeaf]

It is not right that some challenging, SEN children receive stickers, rewards every week (at some schools daily!?) while just average children are left out

Ah diddums, left out? Would you like a dash of autism so your child isn't 'left out' and can get a sticker?

Let's not forget: most of the kids are just normal, average

My child is normal and average, he also has autism. Luckily his teachers/school recognise that, what is for some a basic thing, is for him a massive achievement and they acknowledge it accordingly.

[autumnsmum]

My dd2 is autistic she attends a special school we were offered mainstream . She is a highly anxious child and the least challenging child you could meet

[anitasmall]

My child is neither left out, nor SEN, challenging... but I still think that each child should be recognized.

[poopsydaisy]

Been following this thread with interest.

I think what it highlights most, regardless of whether sticker or reward systems are appropriate or not in schools, is that there is a complete lack of understanding between parents with 'able' kids, and those parents with kids with disabilities.

Posters have been repeatedly told off for using terms such as 'normal' or 'average', a child 'being ASD' or 'with ASD'. Posters have been told off for being ignorant / prejudice / one even used the word bigot. There is a lack of understanding, but I don't think that parents with 'able' (is that even the right word?) kids can be completely flamed and blamed for this lack of understanding.

I don't have any kids with special needs (again, sorry if thats the wrong term), and I also don't have any idea how hard other kids WITH SN find certain things at school. Or indeed how hard life can been with a child with SN. I can imagine or guess, certainly. But I don't know for sure. This makes it very difficult to explain to my children why some classmates get extra time for certain activities, or get a sticker for sitting on the carpet nicely.

I like one poster who said to explain that all children are different and find different things difficult compared to others, and I will take that and use that with my children.

BUt there appears to be a real outrage at the 'ignorance' of parents who genuinely have little or no understanding of kids with special needs. Plus a real disapproval that some posters want their 'normal / average' child to receive rewards too, when they should just be thankful for being 'normal / average'. This seems harsh - as a parent with non -SN kids, I am expected to fully understand what a SN child finds difficult (i'm really sorry, but I honestly don't fully understand, how could I?), yet I am not allowed to suggest that my 'average' child receives a reward too.

I expect I'll also be flamed like every other poster who has little or no understand of SN children, but please try and Help us to understand more, as opposed to posting ^diddums, does you child feel left out, would you like a dash of autism so you don't feel left out^. That is shocking, and doesnt help anyone understand better.

[poopsydaisy]

ok thanks polter, I will definetely take a look - I have to admit, unless you're actually 'living' with a situation - be it a child with a disability, a relative with a terminal illness, going through a messy divorce (or any other big life-altering event), you do tend to just shuffle on with your own life and be completely unaware of what else is going on around you.

Yes, that is ignorant to a certain extent, but I think, overall, there is a big gap in education between parents with special needs children and those without. This thread has certainly educated me and got me thinking, hopefully many others too, on both sides of the debate.

[bialystockandbloom]

poopsydaisy Fair point, it is hard for those without dc with sn to truly understand.

But for as many (6) years as I've been on MN I've seen the same handful of posters explaining patiently again and again and again and again the realities of life. MN even launched a campaign last year This is My Child which was aimed at MNers themselves to help try and stop and think for a minute about how disabilities impact on children, their families, their lives, their behaviour etc.

Reasonable people like you and some others on this thread do get that the same rules can't be applied as a blanket rule to all children - even just to go some small way to level playing field, accommodations must be made for dc with sn.

It's when the petulant attitude of "s'not fair, they get treats and my children don't, wah" rears it's head again and again, even after a thread full of 200 patient, rational explanations, that people just lose patience. It's not so far away from the resentment that people encounter for being so 'lucky' to have a blue badge/disabled car space/motability allowance etc.

Parents of dc with sn are not saints - we're just normal people who got a deal of cards which was unfair and harder than most, but we are expected not only to deal with extra difficulties for us and our children, with virtually no support from the 'state' in most cases, without complaining, but on top of that we must be educators to the rest of society. It's bloody knackering. No wonder sometimes, as just mere mortals like the rest of you, we sometimes get fucking fed up of having to be the calm one all the time. Life is hard enough.

Sorry if this seems angry It is certainly not aimed at you

I can't remember if it was you or another poster who asked how to explain to 4yos why another child is getting a 'treat'. When ds was nearly 4yo and we were trying to toilet train (very phobic about using toilets) we used a reward system with raisins as these were hugely motivating for him. We had to have a big discussion with nursery about it, as obv this wasn't allowed usually so could have caused problems tantrums among the other kids. Thankfully the nursery manager was enlightened and empathetic enough to realise that a simple "[ds] finds it really really hard to use the toilet so needs an extra special treat" was sufficient to explain to the 3/4yos. There was not one single problem with this, ever. Imo it's the parents who make the fuss, not the children.

[autumnsmum]

Poopsey I wasn't aware when I only had my first who had no difficulties polter gives a good link it's lovy your interested

[LittleMissGreen]

poopsydaisy - I have 2 children with autism, and one slightly above average child without. One of the children with autism is also considered able and talented in literacy. None of my children have any behavioural issues per se - although DS1 spent most of KS1 hidden under a desk as he was too scared to come out - didn't really affect any other children they could just ignore him.
I can't answer for anybody else on this thread, but I can try and answer from my perspective.
Firstly, saying an autistic child, rather than a child with autism, whilst technically either is correct it isn't very nice to be described/defined by your disability - people with glasses wouldn't like to be called the short sighted child for example.
I personally believe that any child should be rewarded within the school reward system as that system allows. If there is a reward for good work I personally believe it should be given for how HARD the child has worked, rather than the outcome achieved. This stops just the cleverest children continually achieving an award. Any child regardless of ability as long as they have worked harder than they usually would should receive the award.
If there is a reward for caring for others, then that could be awarded to the child who continually sits on the carpet poking other children on the day that he doesn't poke other children - that is a step forward for that child. Yet another child, who doesn't normally poke others, might be given this award the first time when in the playground another child gets hurt and they help them up and find a teacher, or if they get help when they see another child being bullied - this child has just gone out of their way to do something out of the ordinary for them.
This falls down when a school has a reward system where there is only a set number of rewards that can be handed out - e.g. only one star of the week which then appears to just be used to reward 'other' children. At DS1s first school they didn't do any rewards other than star of the week. It was his dream to win that cup. His 'turn' came late in the school year as the teacher struggled to find something to award it for. By that time his efforts to try and win the cup had all but dwindled away along with his self esteem. At the boys current school the teacher gives our reward tickets on a daily basis, as many as is seen fit. The whole class might come out with one, nobody might come out with one, but there isn't a limit to the number of children who might have done something extra special that day.

Anyhow, from my experience (both personal and from lots of reading) children with autism (and therefore presumably other disabilities too) struggle to act 'normally'. They are often desperate to fit in and not be picked on, but to even attempt to do that takes such a massive amount of effort. It's a bit like asking a severely short sighted person to not use their glasses all day but to make sure that nobody realises that they can't see properly - to try and solve their shortsightedness by effort alone. Without trying to generalise too much children with autism struggle to understand the social norms. They may not understand body language, tone of voice, or even the meaning behind the words that you are saying. When DS1 was reception age, for example, he thought all elderly people were angry with him because he associated their wrinkles with an angry face - he didn't understand the smiling mouth meant they were happy. All of this information processing needs to be consciously taught and the child has to consciously process this information to work out what other person is really feeling/saying - something that NT children do naturally.
They often have hyper sensitive senses so a slight knock might feel like a massive hit, or the noise of a bee buzzing past the window might sound like a jumbo jet taking off - imagine then being in school with 30 other children in your classroom giggling, whispering or talking to each other - the sensory overload is so much that they lash out uncontrollably. Yet they have to sit on the carpet next to this noise, or to the child next to them who accidently bumps them, and act as if everything is fine.

[AmberLeaf]

I think what it highlights most, regardless of whether sticker or reward systems are appropriate or not in schools, is that there is a complete lack of understanding between parents with 'able' kids, and those parents with kids with disabilities

I actually have both, so I do get it. I get that it can seem like some children are not 'recognised'. but even before I knew I had a child with autism, I could see that those who struggled more to achieve the basics, should have more recognition. We give medals to those who run marathons, not those who walk to the corner shop.

I expect I'll also be flamed like every other poster who has little or no understand of SN children, but please try and Help us to understand more, as opposed to posting diddums, does you child feel left out, would you like a dash of autism so you don't feel left out That is shocking, and doesnt help anyone understand better^

I found the post that was in response to shocking.

Parents of dc with sn are not saints - we're just normal people who got a deal of cards which was unfair and harder than most, but we are expected not only to deal with extra difficulties for us and our children, with virtually no support from the 'state' in most cases, without complaining, but on top of that we must be educators to the rest of society. It's bloody knackering. No wonder sometimes, as just mere mortals like the rest of you, we sometimes get fucking fed up of having to be the calm one all the time. Life is hard enough

It's when the petulant attitude of "s'not fair, they get treats and my children don't, wah" rears it's head again and again, even after a thread full of 200 patient, rational explanations, that people just lose patience

/\ This /<br />
People on this thread have explained calmly and rationally, yet there is always someone who posts something like the post I responded to.

I have lost count of how many times I have posted on threads trying to help people understand. Some people want to understand, but some don't, they are stuck at how unfair it is that their child doesn't get a sticker.

There is a wealth of information out there about this sort of thing, all easily found by googling, it confuses me as to why the responsibility is on us parents of children with SNs to educate the ignorant* when we are the ones who also bear the brunt of such mean spirited attitudes.

*By ignorant, I don't mean without the knowledge, I mean the wilfully ignorant.

[Martorana]

I don't think it's just a SN matter- loads of children find school difficult without having SN. As it happens my children don't- they find behaving well and doing academic work easy. So I see no reason why they should be rewarded for doing stuff they find easy- they will, if they carry on the way they are, be rewarded by academic achievement, and, as it happens, being picked for stuff because they can be relied on to try hard and behave well. As I would explain to them if they ever whinged about another child not as lucky in this regard as they are getting a sticker for doing something they find easy.

But they haven't whinged, because they, like other children in my experience, have an intuitive understanding about this sort of stuff which remains in place until the "it's not fair" idea is put into their heads by "slight-spotting" adults.

[AmberLeaf]

Hear, hear Martorana.

[Pinkglow]

I think DSs school has it mostly right. At the beginning of each half term they choose a value (last term it was being courageous) and then the children that demonstrate this get a certificate at the end. DS go one because he coped well with a new replacement teacher for a whole week (he has ASD so this was a big thing for him) while another child got one for speaking in front of the whole school earlier in the year etc. This way it doesnt matter if a child has SN or whatever as they are rewarded for doing their own thing.

The rest of the time they are just praised. DS managed to write his name in chalk very neatly on the ground so he got a well done by the teacher and then me. Im sure if someone else in his class writes a whole page very neatly then they also get a well done. Perhaps the school has a reward system for some children in the school where that kind of thing could work for certain children but either way theres no culture of whos getting the most merit points that week.

[voddiekeepsmesane]

I think this whole SN thing is a distraction. My DS has a couple of children with SN in his class and has been with them for almost 6 years now (Year 5). From reception we have had the talk of how "some need more help and do not see or interact with the world as we do" talk (his father, my DP is blind so we know about different needs)

BUT BUT there are a few children in his class that are just plain disruptive. And yet after 6 years there is definitely a pattern of them getting more rewards than those that just get on with it.

I do not however have any answers. It must be very difficult to find ways that bring these children back to what is expected in a classroom. A teacher only has limited resources and time.