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Calling all mums who send their children to top private prep schools what do they teach compared to state school and more advice needed!

111 replies

Beige1 · 19/02/2014 16:39

Hi

Please can you tell me what do they exactly teach children in top private preps compared to state schools? My DS is 3 years old and wondering weather it's worth scrimping and saving to send him to a private prep

On the other hand, is it better to send to good state school and just try to teach at home/ get a private tutor. If so what do I have to make sure I teach him

Ultimately, I would like to try and get him into a grammar school.

Really clueless about all this.

Thanks

OP posts:
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moonbells · 21/02/2014 12:16

Sorry, long reply!

I have my very active and loud DS at a pre-prep which is ideal for him. The alternative was the local (good, Ofsted mostly 2s) infants where they have full classes, a lot of time devoted to teaching the 25% of children who were unable to speak English, and no playground apart from a small tarmac area by a main road. I would also possibly have to have given up work because of its hours, so they were my main concerns, also that he'd be being naughty while the teachers tried to get the class up to the same level. (I was also concerned by an Ofsted comment that "some Y2 pupils' overall grasp of basic number facts, such as the different ways of making 10, is variable. This means they sometimes struggle to tackle other calculations, such as 16p + 4p or 10-3." Maths is important to us as a family and we'd expect better than this.)

The prep has the wraparound care which allows me to keep my job (and pay the fees!) huge sports field and rubber-surfaced area which allows them to run around like mad things at break and the several times a week PE/games, zero tolerance on discipline (he can be challenging - we have already had a meeting on how to keep him toeing the line! I expect he'd have run riot in the infant's school) and they do 1:1 reading daily with the book or another of similar standard coming home that night for re-reading and consolidation. Maths is workbooks and a solid approach to getting the basic understanding right, and not progressing until it's there, however they are all ahead of the Ofsted point raised above, and they're in Y1. Some mums have discovered their local outstanding primaries have apparently been working at a higher maths level, but the thought is that spending time slowly getting the concepts at YR - Y2 means that they will have a much better ability to cope once the pace gets ramped up at Y3 when they pass to the main Prep. I've seen the standards of the older children and I'm impressed (and I am usually cynical have a maths-science degree and was always top at maths at (state) school).

Expectations are high: we have the reading, we have the weekend homework (usually project-based, requiring research skills and independent working), bigger scope holiday homework. Spellings weekly. French, music all taught by specialists, he'll do Latin from 7. (I'm actually quite looking forward to that, I started at 11 and it wasn't soon enough.)

Costs: don't forget holidays are longer and childcare in the extra weeks can be a serious challenge if you work! More costs. Fees rise 4-5% a year at the moment and have been as high as 6% in the past decade, so you need to do a cumulative spreadsheet to work out how much they're likely to be at 11 or 13.

On the 11 or 13 bit, most prep schools for boys go to 13 and common entrance, and you have to sign a legal contract to state you will keep your son there until CE. They do not like parents leaving at 11!

I'm happy with where DS is; I'd be happier if I didn't feel I needed to send him there another issue entirely and I know I am fortunate to be able to!, but right now it's the best for him. Maybe move back at junior school level to the outstanding local? Don't know. Thats in 1.5y so anything can happen!

The diversity at the schools is interesting though. Local school is about 75% white, 25% south Asian and that's it. The prep is about 85% south Asian/middle east, with the rest of Chinese, white-Euro, African or mixed origin. None of the boys pay any attention to appearances - it's great!

Oh, getting them in can be a hassle if the prep is selective. See all the posts on 3+4+7+ etc!

moonbells · 21/02/2014 12:18

agh punctuation - infants' school Blush

BudsBeginingSpringinSight · 21/02/2014 12:25

he'll do Latin from 7. (I'm actually quite looking forward to that, I started at 11 and it wasn't soon enough.)

Grin

You dont hear many people saying that!

BudsBeginingSpringinSight · 21/02/2014 13:02

Do things like getting Bond books help at all? IE now, rather than just before the 11+?

Beige1 · 21/02/2014 13:16

BudsBeginingSpringinSight

Good question, exactly the same I was wondering yesterday so I googled the books and didn't know you could get them starting from 5-6 years. Although my son is 3 years, I'm tempted to get a few of the 5-6 year old ones so I can prepare myself to prepare him when he is 5 years old.

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JammieMummy · 21/02/2014 14:12

Hi Beige1

As you can probably tell by my post we're not so focused on academics at the little ages, I think it is more about developing personality. They will work hard enough when the time comes and there is only a finite amount of time for them to be batman (and believe it). I think it depends on your prep school, but I think if your child doesn't want to/plain WON'T sit, listen and focus then give them the space to run and when they are ready they will get there.

If you try and force it then they will hate school and you may never get them back. Also my DD's school accept boys until 7 so he could go there but he would have a reputation for being the naughty boy in class (which he isn't at all but he would be a high spirited boy in a class of quite focused children) and I didn't want him to have that negative label at such a little age.

The other thing to think about is it is MUCH easier to supplement their education the younger they are, so with a bit of reading every day and some inventive thinking (or chatting to MNetters) you should be able to do the same job as a good Pre-prep, so of cost is an issue (or you don't think your DS is going to make the most of what is available to him before the age of 7) and you have good state schools then don't waste your money! (I should probably add that the mad riot school is still a very good school)

BudsBeginingSpringinSight · 21/02/2014 14:43

They look like a good idea dont they and at least we have a sort of level there to aim for.

I believe Bond books alone wont help them pass 11+ however as a start, better than nothing at this stage..they should be OK. I have ordered some today anyway.

Get my DD used to the verbal and non verbal reasoning...

moonbells · 21/02/2014 15:21

Buds I know, I'm funny like that. (Oddly enough, a grammar pedant too, for which I blame the Latin. Hence the Blush.) Grin

Helpyourself · 21/02/2014 15:43

My dcs prep school gave them an experience very like the one I had at state primary in the 70s. Lots of topic learning and outside play, very little technology, much less sitting down than in state primary. IMO the state curriculum is over accelerated at EYFS. Many prep schools follow the NC; I chose one that didn't.

northlondoncat · 21/02/2014 16:50

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

IdRatherPlayHereWithAllTheMadMen · 21/02/2014 16:52

hansolo

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/primary/2000931-What-if-your-DC-is-at-a-not-so-great-school

in here somewhere....re bar being set low in state schools and parents not realising.

IdRatherPlayHereWithAllTheMadMen · 21/02/2014 16:52

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/primary/2000931-What-if-your-DC-is-at-a-not-so-great-school

Beige1 · 21/02/2014 17:40

northlondoncat That's worrying about the teaching. I would have thought any prep to be much better in teaching then state school. However, having read everyone else's replies on this thread it seems that's not the case and the standards vary despite huge fees.

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Thatssofunny · 21/02/2014 19:04

Beige Why would you expect teaching to be better at a prep school? Simply because you have to pay quite a bit of money for it? Independent schools don't have to employ qualified teachers to teach.

I've done lesson observations at one prep school. It was lovely. The buildings were nice, lovely surroundings, polite children, and the teachers were very helpful when explaining to me what was going on. However, I missed the spark of my own class. I don't like silent lessons, unless we are doing an assessment. My kids talk...a lot. They are messy, they like to have fun and they (on the whole) enjoy our lessons. They work well with each other and are generally very supportive of each other. For me, it was just too quiet,...too regimented and too formal. I don't think I could teach in an environment like that, and generally don't just sit my entire class down with the same workbook to go through. We might be aiming for most of them to be at a level 4 by the end of Year 6, but the majority my class are keen and ambitious and they will work their socks off, if given half a chance. Many of them will exceed these targets when they get to it, and several have done so already. Do not think that just because I work at state school in one of the worst performing LEAs in the country, that my expectations or my class' attainment are low or that I'm a poorer teacher. There are good and bad teachers in both sectors. I do, however, assume that it's a bit easier teaching a class of 15 slightly posh kids. Grin

Davidhasselhoffstoecheese · 21/02/2014 19:28

I would probably send him to the best state school for infants. Do you have a good one close? After all infants should involve lots of play and less pressure. The main thing is helping him develop a love of learning. In the mean time read to him lots and when he is at school, listen to him read. Reading really helps all round. In year 2 he will have sats exams. If he is performing a couple if years ahead (level 3), he's grammar material. If he's achieving level 3 and you suspect he's not reaching his potential you can always stick him in prep school or tutor him. At least if he does infants locally (and possibly juniors too), he will have lots of local friends. You will make more local friends too.

Personally if I had to choose, I'd opt for private at secondary level rather then primary level. Opportunities and facilities are excellent at secondary level. Maybe you could try and get him into the grammar but if that fails, stick him in private.

IdRatherPlayHereWithAllTheMadM · 21/02/2014 19:47

I do, however, assume that it's a bit easier teaching a class of 15 slightly posh kids

Oh my!

I am sure in some schools like in some state, you get good and bad pupils, posh doesn't = compliant perfect student. I know of a few schools shut down with incredible St Trianians like behaviour going on.

Do you think It was because you were observing that there was an air of ....must be quiet and behave...

Also at a fee paying school parents have more sway and its more open to the fee paying parents.

A state school teacher may bat you off, obfuscate and so on. A fee paying teacher does the same, the parents have far more redress.

HanSolo · 21/02/2014 19:50

I suppose that's the differencs thatsso- round here you have to be level 5 by end of Y5, otherwise you've no hope of a grammar place.
I work in a school with comprehensive intake, lots of whom attend because their parents are opposed to grammar/11+ ideologically, lots who fail to gain entrance to grammar too. The percentage of children coming in with 6s at KS2 is astonishing, far higher than national.
However, I know that children from the selective preps actually spend Y7 at the grammars, in the main, coasting. They're already used to the changing classroom, moving from teacher to teacher, having timetables, self-managing their time, having cartloads of equipment and games kit etc, that the children from state schools just don't have experience of.

The selective preps in our area have highly qualified teaching staff, and all publish staff lists with qualifications on them. It's kind of expected really.

Thanks, idrather, will read later.

Thatssofunny · 21/02/2014 19:58

IdRather It was a joke. Grin My sister went to an independent school, and she's anything but well-behaved.

Actually, no, I don't think they behaved because I was there. I think they behaved and were working in silence because 1) I was shown the top set and 2) their teacher was quite an old fashioned guy and tended to teach like that.
I've observed quite a few lessons in quite a few schools in my time and had a similar experience at a state school. I didn't like it there, either. (It's creepy...but that's only my personal impression of it,...other people like it.) On the other hand, I've also observed the "kids are mental, swearing and chasing each other around the room to try and beat each other up"-lesson, where I felt the need to step it. That was at a state secondary school, though. Saw the same teacher with a top set a week later and it was much more "normal", with lots more teaching and learning going on.

Beige1 · 21/02/2014 21:53

Thatssofunny

"Beige Why would you expect teaching to be better at a prep school? Simply because you have to pay quite a bit of money for "

Naively I did think that because of my experiences when I attended state schools. Having read the posts though I've learnt there is good and bad in state and prep.

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Beige1 · 21/02/2014 22:57

Davidhasselhoffstoecheese

"I would probably send him to the best state school for infants. Do you have a good one close?"

I haven't looked to see if there are any good state infant schools as I had just been chasing after the pre prep/prep idea. I'm going to research it soon and find one I can compare to a pre prep near our area.

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chauffeurmummy · 21/02/2014 23:03

My dd is at a non selective preprep which feeds into a sightly selective prep which gets a tonne of scholarships at CE for senior schools. What I like about it is the combination of no homework (apart from reading and weekly spellings), a huge amount of playing in a wonderful environment and the high levels of staff (2 classes of 20 with a teacher and 2.5 TAs each). They read to a teacher or TA every single day (and can change their book), they are grouped for maths and literacy from Reception and are in sets in Yr 2. Each week they have 2 games lessons, a PE lesson, 2 music lessons, an ICT lesson, a French lesson and a Speech & Drama lesson - all with specialist teachers. To me the time in school is well managed so she is getting a very rounded education with lots of targeting to her level so it leaves lots of time to play. Plus no homework is a blessing so she can enjoy her time after school and in the holidays.

Northerner7777 · 22/02/2014 22:54

Which school is this chauffeurmummy?

kilmuir · 23/02/2014 21:25

why on earth would a 5 year old need to learn Latin?

moonbells · 23/02/2014 21:47

Parts of speech. Grammar. Sentence structure. Logical thought. Basis of a lot of English words. Makes other languages (especially Romance languages) ridiculously easy later on. It's even useful in science.

They start at 7-8 in our school. Once they are free readers in English.

Misfitless · 24/02/2014 06:42

Wow - I thought classes would be smaller than 20, tbh.

What time do the children who start at 7 am, finish their school day, moonbells?