Calling all mums who send their children to top private prep schools what do they teach compared to state school and more advice needed!

[Beige1]

Hi

Please can you tell me what do they exactly teach children in top private preps compared to state schools? My DS is 3 years old and wondering weather it's worth scrimping and saving to send him to a private prep

On the other hand, is it better to send to good state school and just try to teach at home/ get a private tutor. If so what do I have to make sure I teach him

Ultimately, I would like to try and get him into a grammar school.

Really clueless about all this.

Thanks

It is difficult to make direct comparisons because schools are so different. DD went to an outstanding primary school. Outstanding in every way - excellent education-wise and loads of extra curricular activities. She received a very rounded education there and continues to receive an excellent education at high school. She is one of the youngest in her year and has just achieved an A grade in a GCSE maths test at 13 - and no, she isn't even G & T, just works hard.

The primary school orchestra was and still is fantastic and regularly performs at the MFY festival in Birmingham. They even got through to the finals at the Albert Hall one year, and their teacher won Classic FM music teacher of the year. This is just a state primary school BTW.

For all I know DD might be receiving an even a better education at a private school, but finances didn't allow us to send DD to one.

Weirdly, the children I have had transfer into my KS2 classes (at our officially rather normal, inner city primary) from independent schools (and that's several different ones), were all years behind. Apparently, nobody had ever told the parents that their children were working at such low levels.

Perhaps we just get the ones even the prep schools give up on. Meh..

I'd check the schools carefully, though, whether independent or state. You can have rubbish independent schools, in the same way as there can be rubbish state ones. However, you pay a lot for one...and the other is mostly free.

My school is in an 'rough locals' kind of area, but it's a great school. We know all our kids, we know their parents and we've got a very dedicated staff. Our results vary from year to year, but I do have children, who work two or three years ahead of their peers and they get supported in the same way as my SEN kids get support. Granted, our facilities aren't great...and we could do with a field,...but we've got clubs on every day after school, do lots of competitive sports, work with local artists, theatres and universities and, on the whole, our kids get a lot of opportunities considering the size of our school.

thatsofunny some private schools do 'manage out' the pupil who can't keep up. I suspect that's what you've experienced.

wordfactory Yes, that may have been the case. I don't quite understand how their lack of progress can go so unnoticed with the parents, though. I've had one parent get rather angry with me, when I told her that her 9-year-old wasn't capable of writing in sentences (let alone paragraphs), didn't know how to write in a range of basic genres and couldn't spell high-frequency words. Apparently, he had been able to do this at his prep school. It took a while, until we finally figured out that his prep were very keen on teaching children by making them copy stuff off the board. He hadn't written anything independently up to that point. His maths skills were in a similar state.
I had another child of the same age produce three sentences in a 40-minute writing session. According to her parents, her prep had not considered this to be a problem. My child on a level 1 produced an entire page in that time (granted, with only one full stop and capital letter...but at least she had tried).

I'm not sure whether I'm just grumpy and expect too much,...but if that had been my child, I would want my money back.

Did the fact that the children were years behind have anything to do with them transferring to a free form of education! (Or was it because of the dire economy?) Who wants to pay lots for their kids to stay ignorant? Well, perhaps better ignorant alongside the sons of earls, industry and high celeb than knowledgeable but mixing with Johnny Oik.

Thatssofunny,

I have had exactly the same experience with children arriving from private schools. Most had simply moved house and been unable to find private places locally so had come to state schools 'temporarily'. One child was described as 'gifted' by their previous private school, but went straight onto the SEN register in a bog-standard village primary, as they were a couple of years behind. None were ahead of the general level in the class, most were middle or a little below - but all found the idea of differentiated work within the class extraordinary, as well as the amount of independent work they were expected to complete. Very carefully structured tasks - possibly to the extent of spoon-feeding / rote learning - seemed to be their norm.

Obviously, it will depend ENTIRELY on the individual schools concerned. Some pre-preps will be amazing, as will some state schools. Others, in both sectors, are less good. What paying money DOES buy, though, is a slightly different peer group, and the ability for a school to 'manage out' pupils with behavioural difficulties and in many cases anything but the specialise in e.g. dyslexia or ASD). The extent of 'extras' over and above state schools will vary by area - some state schools have orchestras, wind groups, string groups, endless extra-curricular sport, MFL specialists teaching all children in KS2, full wrap-around care etc, others will not.

If you main focus is passing the 11+ to a local grammar, you might be best looking for a 'private primary', not a pre-prep. In many grammar areas there are a number of private primaries that cater from 5-11 and specialise in 11+ preparation throughout the school. If the 11+_ is your only goal, you would be better off in one of these 'specialist' schools, rather than a pre-prep whose main goal may be entry to a prep school to 13 and may actually do very little 11+ preparation.

Ooops, managed to delete a line 'in many cases anything but the lowest level of SEN (however, this is not universal as some private schoools specialise in e.g. dyslexia or ASD)' [but very rarely EBD!]

Teacherwith2kids I'd agree with your observation that,
"None were ahead of the general level in the class, most were middle or a little below - but all found the idea of differentiated work within the class extraordinary, as well as the amount of independent work they were expected to complete. Very carefully structured tasks - possibly to the extent of spoon-feeding / rote learning - seemed to be their norm." I wasn't sure whether that was just our particular area, we certainly have one local prep school with a rather dire reputation in that respect.
One of the children I got found it near on offensive that I didn't spend my entire time sitting next to him and "helping" him. He'd just sit there and stare into space, waiting for me to come and help...and explain the task again for him personally. After all, that's what had happened previously (in a class of 8 and with a full time TA). I expect my SEN kids to pay attention and to at least get started with a task independently. Oh well,...

That said, I would consider independent schools for my own children,...but mainly due to the wrap-around care. I'd still keep an eye on what they are actually doing and how the children are progressing (after all, I'm keeping a close eye on progress in my class,...and these aren't even kids I'm related to. )

Thatsso - I'm lucky, DD's state primary has wrap around care from 7.45 - 5.45 every day (though we do use a childminder before school as i need a slightly earlier start).

teacherwith2kids That's lucky. Our local primary school has something like a breakfast club, which starts at 8.30am. No after school provision at all. I start at my own school (20 miles away) at 8,...DH starts at 7.45am. We live very rural,...so the next school is 3 miles away and still doesn't start any later. (We don't appear to have many childminders in the village, either.)
Considering all the logistics that would have to be involved, we might be better off home-schooling.

Something I didn't mention last night, Beige, is that a 'top prep' will still expect you to do a lot at home with your child- you will need to read with them every day, practise and learn their spellings, timetables, etc etc. A lot of the selection in pre-prep is actually selecting the parents- will they go the whole hog and push their child? Will they provide a supportive environment for the child, that reinforces rules, discipline, and learning? Do they believe in a broad education (i.e. drama, sport, music, LAMBDA speech etc) or will they only support academic endeavour?

One of the clauses in the contract for our school refers entirely to the parents' behaviour, and there are high expectations of them, not to behave in a manner that reflects badly on the school. (Though I know of 1 particular parent that behaved shockingly, in public life, national tabloid stuff, where the children were not removed from the school, but the school reserves the right to withdraw a child's place in such circumstances. I assume those children kept their places because they had been at the school for 5 and 7 years, and had nothing to do with the situation and were outstanding pupils. Another parent was arrested at school for drink driving, and their child did lose their place at the end of the academic year).

The other thing that you really must take into account is that a rather large proportion of those going on from fee-paying primaries to grammars will still be tutored out of school... i.e. parents paying for tutoring on top of school fees. Sadly the secondary options in some areas leave parents feeling they have no choice but to near guarantee their child a place at grammar. Certainly in our area (super-selective grammars) it is no use merely passing the 11+, one needs to be in the top 600 positions, usually 50-60 marks above the 'pass rate' to gain a place in a grammar school.

thatssofunny the sorts of parents who don't notice their DC are lagging behind, will not have DC who fair well at prep school and are thus more likely to be managed out.

The home school partnership is roundly accepted by all. Most parents are happy with that, but some find it onerous/intrusive and their kids often don't fair well IME.

Word, as I said above, I have rather similar experience to thatsso regarding children moving from private to state - but mainly as a result of house moves. In the main, not children who are being 'managed out' for any reason (except one child with 'such bad behavioural issues that no private school in the surrounding area would touch him with a bargepole' - said child is now absoluitely fine, just had significant specific SEN that are now being diagnosed and managed well, behaviour is now exemplary).

I would emphasise, these are not children from 'top flight' selective preps / pre-preps BUT they are from the type of non-sel;ectiove / moderately selective private schools that form the vast bulk of the private school economy in the c. 50 mile radius around where I live and work.

Should also say that in all the children I have had experience of, parents were, and have remained, highly involved. One blunt parent did say 'Perhaps the school wanted to make themselves look good by saying our child was doing well, and better than they would at a state school, to make us keep paying the fees'.

HOWEVER, I would say again, that some private pre-preps will be absolutely worth the money - for reasons of wrap around care, lack of good state school options (or lack of certainty getting into any state school at all in some parts of the country), feeding into specific desirable secondaries, and in some cases for academic standards etc. Just it isn't UNIVERSALLY the case.

I used to teach in a grammar school and it wasn't at all obvious which students had come from private and which are state.

Goodness- but that is probably because the vast majority of children in a grammar school will be middle class and tutored to the hilt, regardless if they went to a state or prep school.

Scarlett, what I took from Goodness' post was that the 'benefits' of private school were not evident in children once they had moved on to a selective secondary.

The advantage is - or may be, depending on the school - not a 'better education that has a lasting effect intio secondary', but an advantage in the arms race that is the 11+ entry point.

Well exactly, children at a grammar should theoretically be there on academic merit so there isn't likely to be obvious difference.

I did private prep for one then moved second child into state so a bit of experience of both.

Private was much smaller group, lovely room with space, high ceilings and they made a cooked lunch for them. Very young staff, lovely and kind.

The state school primary was much busier, more chaotic. But teachers were older, more experienced and had high academic expectations for the children.

So one looked lovelier but the other was more hard-working. Both ofsted outstanding. So depends on what you have in your area/can afford.

I'm glad I started this thread. Thanks to everyone who has posted so far. I have learnt so much about this from all of you.

As everyone says, it very much depends on the school. DS switched to a selective private school this year for P7 (11 years old). At his state school he was top 3 in his class for reading, writing and maths. At his new school he is still top at reading (voracious reader, never without a book!) fairly good at writing, but decidedly average in maths. His old teacher had been giving him extra work towards the end of the school year last year because she knew there would be a gap, but it was a bit bigger than we expected. The private school also has a much bigger focus on independent projects and DS was expected to be far more at ease researching, analysing, drawing conclusions etc than he actually was at the start of the the school year.

The good news for us is that at least we know the gaps now so when it comes to DD to (hopefully) join DS there in a couple of years, we'll be able to focus on the gaps before she starts!

The extra curriculars were a big draw as well. This school provides a zillion and one activities and DS takes part in as much as he can squeeze in. I know there are State schools who do a variety of activities and clubs, but ours wasn't one!

That's partly what happens when you go selective in general though, private or state.

At the grammar I taught at students were used to being top of their year/class and then suddenly immersed in an environment where they were all bright!

I would go back to "depends on your child" as everyone else says.

DD is in a non-selective prep school, we sent her there because it was the only school we looked around where she was happy and relaxed enough to leave our side. She is a nervous child and at one school I couldn't put her down with 30 reception aged children madly running riot everywhere enjoying their free flow play. She is not yet in reception (doing nursery mornings there) but she can already read and spell 3 and 4 letter words and can do basic addition and subtraction. But she is a very egar to please child so is shooting ahead due to her love for her teacher! For me the biggest thing is that she is happy, she LOVES school and looks forward to going, I believe if a child enjoys it then they will learn, if they don't want to be there how can they engage?

DS is not at school yet but our plan is to send him to the mad running riot school! It will definitely suit his personality (not the type of child to sit quietly and enjoy a task) and he is NOT egar to please at all! He will have a great time being batman in the playground and screaming loudest. That school ends at 7 and then he will go to a "top flight" prep, we have 2 or 3 ear marked. There he will do at least 2 MFL and Latin, he will do a minimum of an hour and a half of sport everyday (nothing would make him happier except perhaps sport ALL day) they have amazing facilities such as golf courses, shooting ranges etc and opportunities I would like to take part in so much I am considering volunteering to chaperone such as an over night "camp out" with the dinosaur bones at the natural history museum. But again my biggest hope is he enjoys every second of vast amounts of green space, sports and opportunities which the school will offer, if he does that then I am sure he will learn something along the way.

In terms of academics both should leave their school (end of prep so 13) with the knowledge and ability to sit GCSEs in English, Maths and French, at least, along with the initiative to be able to plan, carry out and write up experiments, assignments etc. But I would be over the moon happy with the money we have spent if they are happy, balanced individuals who look back on their days at school with a smile!

"That's partly what happens when you go selective in general though, private or state.

At the grammar I taught at students were used to being top of their year/class and then suddenly immersed in an environment where they were all bright!"

I am aware of that. I went from top 5% of my high school class to a top tier university where everyone was top 5-10% and all of us adjusted pretty quickly to the new environment. I didn't have large gaps in my knowledge, however, and this is what concerns me in our switch from our State school to the selective private. DS spent the first couple of months doing lots of remedial maths to catch him up to where he should be. There were large areas of the curriculum he hadn't covered in school and this put him at a disadvantage- hence my stating Likewise with the project work- his new school expects far more independent thinking than his old one. His school was very much spoon feeding the children on project work.

I don't care where either DC sits in their class. I do care if they are starting at a point behind their peers and are then at risk of slipping further and further behind unless we quickly tackle it! Fortunately we now know the starting point and hopefully DD won't find that she has these gaps in her learning when she switches school.

JammieMummy

"DS is not at school yet but our plan is to send him to the mad running riot school! It will definitely suit his personality (not the type of child to sit quietly and enjoy a task) and he is NOT egar to please at all! He will have a great time being batman in the playground and screaming loudest. "

That sounds like my son, he not the sit down quietly and do an activity type. I was thinking of sending him to pre prep as I thought maybe the influence of other kids focusing might influence him and he does focus a bit more with others just not me or hubbie. Then again, like you said maybe it is better for personality type to find a school like him.