look and say recommendations

[paperlantern]

have been told that ds needs "look and see" reading scheme as opposed to phonics. currently not reading at all

i want to do some work on this at home. I would love any recommendations on a scheme of books we could get or explain how to get started on look and say. This is all a bit new for me

UKsounding, congratulations on a marvellous and well reasoned dissertation. I hope it doesn't get ignored (but I fear it will.)

Not ignore I found it very entertaining

uksounding I was wrong there was something more of use to this thread. your post summed up my position perfectly almost to the point of making me cry

mrz - you are so out of sync with what I needed out of this thread. if you want a discussion about the merits of phonics vs the horror of look and say please bugger off and start a separate thread. You comments have at best been unhelpful and irrelevant, at worst demonstrate why so many mums of special needs kids get hacked off at useless sencos.

uksounding summed up perfectly what I feel I need to be doing with my son and why.

I'm sorry if you find it unhelpful of me to point out that UKsounding's view is contrary to current research

If you simply want a lists of Look & Say books

try
ORT
Ginn 360
Rigby Star
PM
Project X
Rapid Readers
Bug Club
Storyworld

thank you that would have been appreciated.

rigby star are awesome but are phonics.

project x are phonics

ginn 360 are look and see.

Rigby Star Phonics are phonics - Rigby Star are Look and Say.

Project X Phonics are phonics - and Project X is Look and Say.

So take your face off please.

Just because they are labelled 'phonics' doesn't mean to say that you can't 'teach' them in a 'look and say' fashion. Once a child has mastered phonics they can read books labelled 'look and say' (except that they're not so labelled). It's not a hanging offence.

going by the website

Then blame the publishers, not mrz you rude woman - it's clear enough to me though. Both have a phonic strand - just buy the others

Paperlantern, whilst I can appreciate that you started this thread simply to get a list of look & say books, you must remember that once a thread is started on a public website like mumsnet it becomes immediately google'able

You may well be delighted to read uksounding's pseudo scientific post which plucks figures out of thin air as it backs up what you want to believe.

However, I for one, am glad that teachers with expertise and experience have contributed and challenged these opinions. You may not want to hear what they say, but there may be countless others who have children with Specific Language Impairments reading this. If current research suggests that phonics teaching is likely to result in the best outcome for these children, then that could be very helpful information to someone else out there.

Well said, Guinevere.

No Rigby Star Phonics are phonics, Rigby Star are Look & Say
Just as Project X phonics are phonics and Project X are Look & Say and Rapid Phonics are phonics and Rapid Readers are Look & Say

the clue is in the word phonics

Any course, guide, lesson plan or tutorial with the word phonics stamped on it is automatically pure phonics, you heard it here first, folks.

Let's here no more complaints from now on then.

Mrz
I'm not in favour of spell you as U (it's just wrong!)
No more wrong than I. U and I would make a rather neat pair.
The main spelling for a /yoo/ sound is an opne u (use, unit, muse, fuse) just like an open i for the /i-e/ sound.
U clearly prefer things to be more difficult than need be.

I've waited a number of years for you to explain how you will overcome regional variations and accents in your proposals but you have continually failed to answer.

Not true! I've explained many times that tackling the worst inconsistencies of English spelling (e.g. surplus letters, unpredictably doubled consonants, unpredictable spellings for the stressed /ee/sound) would not be impeded by different accents in any way.

It seems that u are so opposed to making learning to read and write English easier that u have always ignored the changes i'm actually proposing.

Now where did I say that columngollum ... you need to learn to read the actual words rather than guessing!

No! No! NO! U is just wrong!

You have never once answered the question of how all this could be achieved as for those unpredictable spellings for the stressed /ee/sound) [what?] how would your reform affect the word head in my local accent?

why have literacy rates not improved since the introduction of phonics ?

even if its done with old books, half heartedly or with teachers who don't do it quit right, surely by now there would be some improvement in reading levels.

'Head' has the short vowel sound of 'bed, fed, led', as spelt in 300 common words. Do u have trouble coping with those? Would u prefer the short /e/ sound to be spelt ea?

If the use of 'ea' for short /e/ was eliminated, learning to read words with ea would already become easier. But for overall improvement of English spelling eliminating or substantially reducing the many different spellings for the /ee/ sound would be more beneficial. The different spellings for it are one of the main reasons why it takes around 10 years to become a proficient speller of English:
48 words have 2 spellings: Bee/be, beech/beach, been/bean, beet/beat, breech/breach, cheep/cheap, creek/creak, deer/dear, discreet/discrete, eerie/eyrie, eve/eaves, feet/feat, flee/flea, freeze/frieze, jeans/genes, Greece/grease, heel/heal, hear/here, key/quay, leech/leach, leek/leak, meet/meat, need/knead, pee/pea, peace/piece, peek/peak, peel/peal, peer/pier, reed/readx2[reed/red], reek/wreak, reel/real, sealing/ceiling, seamen/semen, see/sea, seem/seam, seen/scene, serial/cereal, sheer/shear, sheikh/chic, steel/steal, sweet/suite, tee/tea, teem/team, wee/we, week/weak, wheel/weal. In UK also: geezer/geyser, leaver/lever.
The other 360 common words spell the stressed, clear /ee/ sound as follows:
Beef, beer, beetle, between, bleed, bleep, breed, breeze, career, cheek, cheer, cheese, cheetah, creep, deed, deep, eel, exceed, feeble, feed, feel, fleece, fleet, geese, greed, green, greet, indeed, jeep, jeer, keel, keen, keep, kneel, meek, needle, peep, pioneer, preen, proceed, proceedings, proceeds, queen, queer, reef, screech, screen, seed, seek, seep, seesaw, sheep, sheet, sleek, sleep, sleet, sleeve, smithereens, sneer, sneeze, speech, speed, squeeze, steep, steeple, steer, street, succeed, sweep, sweet, teeth, teetotal, thirteen, tweed, tweezers, weed, weep, wheedle, wheeze, wildebeest.
Appeal, beacon, bead, beak, beam, beard, beast, beaver, beneath, bleach, bleak, bleat, breathe, cease, cheat, clean, clear, colleague, conceal, congeal, cream, crease, creature, deal, dean, decrease, defeat, disease, dream, dreary, each, eager, eagle, ear, ease, east, Easter, eat, fear, feast, feature, freak, gear, gleam, glean, heap, heat, heath, heathen, heave, increase, leadx2, leaf, league, lean, leap, lease, leash, least, leave, meagre, meal, mean, measles, near, neat, ordeal, peach, peat, plead, please, pleat, preach, queasy, reach, really, reap, rear, reason, release, repeat, retreat, reveal, scream, seal, sear, season, seat, sheaf, sheath, smear, sneak, speak, spear, squeak, squeal, squeamish, steam, streak, stream, teach, teak, tearx2, tease, theatre, treacle, treason, treat, treaty, veal, wean, weary, weasel, weave, wheat, wreath, year, yeast, zeal.
Open e : Adhesive, arena, cafeteria, cedar, chameleon, Chinese, comedian, compete, complete, concrete, convene, convenient, decent, demon, equal, era, even, evil, experience, exterior, extreme, female, fever, frequent, genie, genius, hero, hyena, imperial, inferior, ingredient, intermediate, legal, legion, lenient, material, medium, mere, meteor, meter, millipede, mysterious, obedient, period, peter, polythene, precede, previous, query, recent, recess, region, relay, scheme, sequence, sequin, series, serious, serum, species, sphere, stampede, strategic, superior, supreme, swede, tedious, theme, theory, these, torpedo, trapeze, vehicle, Venus, zero. He, me, she.
Open i: Albino, antique, aubergine, bikini, clementine, fatigue, guillotine, machine, magazine, margarine, marine, mosquito, plasticine, police, prestige, ravine, regime, routine, sardine, suite, tambourine, tangerine, trampoline, unique, vaseline, pizza.
Achieve, belief, believe, brief , chief, diesel, field, fiend, fierce, grief, grieve, hygienic, medieval, niece, pierce, priest, relief, relieve, shield, shriek, siege, thief, thieve, tier, wield, yield.
Caffeine, codeine, protein, seize, weir, weird, conceive /coneit, deceive /deceit, receive /receipt.
Assorted variants: People; cathedral, secret; pizza, ski, souvenir; debris.

Masha Bell

Because phonics isn't being taught. Many genuinely believe they are teaching phonics while continuing to use mixed methods others as demonstrated on MN pay lip service to phonics but use Look & Say books and methods and many refuse. Phonics isn't statutory so schools don't have to teach it.

Imagine if I were teaching maths and you had just begun to count and I gave you a book of multiplication problems and said look at the pictures

Head' has the short vowel sound of 'bed, fed, led', no masha in my local accent it is pronounced heed

and you buy a loaf of breed at the shop

"48 words have 2 spellings:"

No they don't . They are completely different words which happen to sound the same.You mean that 48 words are homophones.

'jeans/genes' - one refers to denim trousers; the other to a unit of heredity.

'discreet/discrete' - one refers to keeping a confidence; the other to something that is individually separated and distinct.

paperlantern have you been on the SN board here? It might be helpful. My concern is that having seen my DH, as an adult, struggle, look and say can be quite limiting. My DH can't actually understand me if I spell a word out instead of saying it (to avoid my children knowing what we're talking about). He physically has to close his eyes and 'write' the word in his mind as I say the letters, so that he 'sees' an image of the word. He has poor spelling and can't visualise what the word 'could' look like because he either remembers it, or he doesn't. He can't stop a word in the middle, then continue if he's been interrupted. He has to write it as a block, because he has learned to write whole words. This means that he can't recall easily the spellings for diminutive words. He has to learn them separately. Whereas, for example, I could say 'circumnavigate....well..circumference is spelt 'circum...' so circumnavigate must be....' he simply doesn't have those connections. At all. He can't 'hear' the individual sounds in words.

I know it's so hard to see a child struggle. DD1 is 8, at special school, and for the first year she wrote christmas cards on her own, with me giving her each and every letter individually. It made me so proud of DD1, yet tinged with sadness, as I saw my youngest DD carefully and confidently writing her cards from our written prompts despite having only started phonics at half-term. But we have to see the long-term and it's so important that whatever we do can extend into life as an adult.