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look and say recommendations

101 replies

paperlantern · 05/12/2013 19:05

have been told that ds needs "look and see" reading scheme as opposed to phonics. currently not reading at all

i want to do some work on this at home. I would love any recommendations on a scheme of books we could get or explain how to get started on look and say. This is all a bit new for me
Thanks

OP posts:
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mrz · 12/12/2013 06:47

paperlantern as a SENCO I have worked with many Ed Psychs and they aren't infallible. I also firmly believe that even those children who seemingly learn whole words benefit from good phonics teaching, just as I believe Look & Say puts a limit on a child's potential.

maizieD · 12/12/2013 09:32

I'm sorry if the OP thinks that there has been 'Look & Say' bashing going on on this thread.

For my part, it isn't 'bashing', it is being factual about a very damaging method of not teaching reading. It was also being factual about the way that phoneme discrimination is central to the treatment of 2 of the conditions that the OP's son has been diagnosed with. A 'professional' should know this.

GuinevereOfTheRoyalCourt · 12/12/2013 09:54

I'm not so sure about your analysis of mrz's motives paper.

From what you have described about your ds (poor phonological awareness but can say whole words), I can imagine that he may well find learning whole words easier and quicker than phonics. The problem could come when he reaches the limit of whole words that he can be taught and memorise.

I learnt to read successfully by Look & Say, as did most people of my generation. It worked absolutely fine, as despite having no instruction on the subject, we were able to deduce the phoneme/grapheme code for ourselves. Unfortunately a minority couldn't work it out, and if I've understood correctly, mrz's son is one of those. You can't become a truly proficient reader and speller without understanding and being able to apply the code.

The concern is that your ds's poor phonological awareness is still going to have to be addressed. Has the Ed Psych/SALT said anything about tackling this specific problem?

columngollum · 13/12/2013 08:25

ha ha, we're not doing look & say bashing, honest, guv'nor, really, we're not! ha ha

Not much!

Mashabell · 13/12/2013 10:57

Paperlantern
^phonics, look and say, meh. can't see it matters as long as get there. to my mind if one's not working and a professional whose got to grip with your child recommends the other seems to me that's worth a go
^
I agree wholeheartedly.

What i find amazing is that Mrz who is now such a phonics evangelists was not able to help her son herself.

When i discovered that my son was dyslexic, i simply got on and helped him myself, mainly by helping him to understand that his difficulties were due to the irregularities of English spelling, by helping him see why some words were tricky and and helping him to imprint the latter on his mind.

Nobody would ever advocate using anything other than phonics, if English had a spelling system that
spelt its phonemes consistently
and, additionally, did not use so many identical spellings for different sounds: home - come, sound - soup, apple - apron, the - she, here - there.....

All the agonies that children and parents have to go through and all the disputes about how best to teach reading and writing are caused by English having one of the world's worst spelling systems.

We should be getting together and doing something about that - to reduce this pointless misery and merry-go-round.

columngollum · 13/12/2013 11:17

Masha, you miss the point of the English spelling system. It works like this.

(1) Make it really complex and illogical.
(2) Build lots of schools which don't charge anything for the education which they offer, but they educate really badly.
(3) Build lots of expensive schools which educate really well.
(4) Send your children to the expensive schools to learn the complex reading and writing system and then laugh at all the poor people who can't use it.

Smile, lean back and have a cup of tea. Job done.

Mashabell · 13/12/2013 14:33

Yes. It also provides lots of jobs abroad for teaching English to foreigners and huge earnings in this country for foreigners coming to learn English here.

mrz · 13/12/2013 16:52

There would still be lots of jobs teaching English as a foreign language if the orthography was transparent masha as you well know.

mrz · 13/12/2013 16:55

Look & Say has failed thousands of children here and in other English speaking countries FACT if youthink that's L&S bashing then so be it columngollum. also suggest you check out the posts from parents with children in those "expensive" schools you mention who are complaining their child is being taught to read badly !

paperlantern · 13/12/2013 17:30

is this thread still going? Shock

seriously. I appreciate the recommendations the rest really isn't useful to meConfused

OP posts:
mrz · 13/12/2013 17:38

but others may like the discission

columngollum · 13/12/2013 18:11

L&S doesn't fail anybody, how does the apologist's excuse go again? It's bad teaching that fails pupils. L&S is fine.

mrz · 13/12/2013 18:18

suggest you look at the data before making rash statements

mrz · 13/12/2013 18:19

the bad teaching so often referred to is Look & Say columngollum in case you failed to work that out

columngollum · 13/12/2013 18:26

I think you'll find in mn conversations evangelists generally have enthused about their own pet practices and described unfortunate instances of all kinds as poor teaching. It has nothing to do with data.

mrz · 13/12/2013 18:28

it has everything to do with data columngollum ... thousands of children failed

columngollum · 13/12/2013 18:30

Thousands of children are being failed as we speak, and L&S vanished ages ago.

mrz · 13/12/2013 18:36

Best joke of the day columngollum ... how many schools are still sending home ORT & Ginn reading books ... Look & Say lives on unfortunately

maizieD · 13/12/2013 18:48

Unfortunately, mrz, L & S also stands for Letters & Sounds...

mrz · 13/12/2013 18:52

which many teachers seem to believe requires sight word teaching maizieD Hmm

mrz · 13/12/2013 18:54

it also stands for learn & say who also vanished Wink

UKsounding · 13/12/2013 19:25

All bashing unnecessary and unhelpful.

Most readers have access to more than one reading strategy/approach when they decode text.

  • Most readers use a speedy orthographic strategy when reading familiar words. This relies heavily on contributions from the visual perception and memory system. (It is probably piggy-backing on shape- and object-processing systems that we share with many other species.)
  • In addition, most readers have access to a phonological route, which relies more heavily on auditory processing and language systems. A good reader will fall back on slower phonological processing when they meet an unfamiliar word. In practice, fluent readers use a mixture of both all the time.
When you teach reading to a neurologically-typical student, both processing routes are available to the teacher/student. It follows that students can use either/or the two processing routes and therefore will learn via and use both orthographic (Look&Say) and phonological (phonic) methods. Which is most successful for a specific student is dependent on such things as the resources/ experience that the student has access to, the comfort level of the teacher in using one method over the other and there are probably individual differences between students in which system may mature faster/ be more efficient etc. For neurologically-typical students, phonics and Look & Say both work and while at an individual level one may work for some better than the other, but the difference is marginal and not worth worrying about. It makes sense that government policy and support favours the method which gets the biggest bang for the buck. Current, for 80-90% of students, phonics works as fine as any other method, helps develop other language skills like phonemic segmentation etc. and gives kids a strategy to deal with unfamiliar words.

Now, lets turn to the 10-20% of the population who, for one reason or another, do not have two routes available to them when they read. Some individuals, like the OP's son have language processing issues which means that the phonetic building blocks, that are usually in place in a child of his age, are not a sufficiently well-developed foundation on which to build reading skills. Basically, the phonological route may not available to him right now, or if it is it doesn't work very effectively and is bloodly hard work for him.
There are a couple of ways forward - (1) work on improving phoneme processing skills etc. and when these improve they will become available to mediate reading also. This would be mrz's approach I think. A good teacher using a good phonics based system will be able to gains in reading as speech and language skills improve, but no faster. This approach, based on the assumption that you can get language processing up to speed kills two birds with one stone and works for almost everyone. However, these students will be unable to read until SLP skills get going. Alternatively, (2) OP can work with her son using Look & Say techniques that access the other route to reading. This will get him started reading (even if it is a limited vocabulary), improving his self-efficacy and self-esteem and hopefully enough functional reading skills to help him access the curriculum in other areas like math word problems. In time, as his language processing skills improve, he will be able to start benefitting from a phonic approach as well as the phonetic route becomes available. Mrz's approach wouldn't fail this student as long as good phonic instruction is available indefinately into the future - and we know that isn't true as education systems give up on the hard cases.

OP's son is probably always going to find reading hard work, but the sooner he thinks of himself as a reader and starts reading functionally the better the outcome is going to be for him. OP I say get him going any way you can - Dr. Suess, Peter & Jane, operating instructions to xmas presents anything... Reading success breeds reading and what OP's son needs right now is success not educational philosophy.

Mrz - you keep harping on saying how Look&Say has failed thousands. If nothing else, a classroom of kids teaches us that it is full of individual differences and multiple strategies - several per kid and varying by day of the week... When a child struggles to understand something in a math lesson, we try explaining it again and in a different way if necessary. We don't say to a child "I can't explain it to you using a different approach because there are some kids somewhere who don't understand it the other way". I am sorry that your son needed a phonetic approach, and nobody tried it but it doesn't logically follow that Look&Say is the work of the devil. Look&Say alone fails those who needed a phonic approach, because visual memory etc. is compromised but phonics alone will similarly fail those who have to rely on a orthographic route because their language processing is compromised. Most kids learn to read despite which method is used, but for that 10-20% who don't have both reading routes available, it is devastating if an inappropriate method is used exclusively. It would be great if kids entered classrooms with clear indicators giving us advanced notice of which students will respond to which method, but they don't.

If a child in your class couldn't do the 100 m sprint because their legs don't work you wouldn't prevent them using a wheelchair on the basis that wheelchairs don't work as well as feet.

mrz · 13/12/2013 19:30

Don't feel sorry for my son feel sorry for the children who continue to be failed by Look & Say and mixed methods

Mashabell · 13/12/2013 19:46

Mrz
feel sorry for the children who continue to be failed by Look & Say and mixed methods
The opaque English spelling code fails children at least as much as any teaching method.
Why are u not in favour of making that more transparent?

mrz · 13/12/2013 20:05

Masha I'm not in favour of spell you as U (it's just wrong!) and I've waited a number of years for you to explain how you will overcome regional variations and accents in your proposals but you have continually failed to answer.