look and say recommendations

[paperlantern]

have been told that ds needs "look and see" reading scheme as opposed to phonics. currently not reading at all

i want to do some work on this at home. I would love any recommendations on a scheme of books we could get or explain how to get started on look and say. This is all a bit new for me

A lot of the high frequency words are available on magnets and things often in cheap places like the works and wilkinsons so they might be worth looking out for :)

You might find this thread interesting, OP

www.rrf.org.uk/messageforum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=5616

thanks I will have a look

If u want to use look and say, starting with the 100 most used words is probably best, because some of those crop up in everything we read.

61 of them are easily decodable as well:
a, and, as, at, had, has, that, an, back, can,
in, is, it, if, did, him, his, with, big, little, this, will, first,

get, them, then, well, went, her
not, on, from, off, so, go, no, or, for, before, more,

but, much, must, up, just, they,
been, here, see, came, made, make, I, like,
our, out, about, new, over, old,
look.

The other 39 (in descending order from the most frequent) are trickier:
He, of, the, to, was,
all, be, are, have, one, said, we, you, by, my, call, come, could, do, down, into, me, now, only, other, right, she, some, their, there, two, when, want, were, what, where, which, who, your.

U can obviously space them out and print them out on card in a bigger font, and cut them up to use however u think best.

I hope this helps.

and then your child will be able to read 100 words but not a single sentence

There is a sentence in there:

Look, I see her there and she is not now on her back.

Pretty useful for shepherds on the fells, I'd say.

I don't know about you but the shepherds I know don't write each other notes [rolls eyes]

Twas the vet who left it for the shepherd, and grateful he was too, not only to the vet but to masha for teaching him how to read it.

paperlantern - have you been given a diagnosis for your dc?

It's just that I'm curious from what you say as to why your Ed Psych is recommending Look & Say. My own ds had very poor phonological awareness and had disordered speech. The key to unlocking his speech & language problems was being taught phonics systematically. It took him much longer to pick up than other children and segmenting was particularly hard, but he's now reading at the expected level for his age (yr2).

Masha's never taught anyone to read and shepherds on the fells don't have time or money for vets!

My DM taught me to read using look and say - labels around the house and Ladybird books back in the late 60's

No one taught me to read but that doesn't mean it works for everyone (or even most people)

True - I was saying it more in an ironic way

Guinevere - Yes we have a diagnosis of ASD but it is probably wrong and we are going back down the diagnosis process again.

we now have an outline of his difficulties but are looking into the why

What we have tested and confirmed so far is that he has auditory processing difficulties (including phonetic storage and recall and processing speech that isn't quite slow and clear), severe oral and developmental dyspraxia style symptoms and a severe language disorder. one word recall is good, word recall general bad. putting sentences together is however a challenge. However we have now shown through testing he is cognitively normal in the top half of the population (which should be a massive breakthrough in proving school is failing).

Basically he is one very frustrated little boy, brain is working but body is letting him down.

Looking into there do appear to be studies that suggest if you have poor phonetic awareness look and say is more effective that phonics. If you can get there by phonics all to the good. but I don't think it's a bad thing trying an alternative.

Looking into there do appear to be studies that suggest if you have poor phonetic awareness look and say is more effective that phonics.

I'd be interested to see them. Do you have links?

If he has verbal dyspraxia he is most likely to be taught individual phoneme production as part of his SPLD therapy. Do youn think he'll cope with that?

Also, the UK 'expert', Dilys Treharne (Sheffield Uni), on auditory processing difficulties recommends that APD children are taught phoneme discrimination.

This is a presentatation by her from the APD website. It's a bit confusing but you can see that phoneme discrimination is part of the training programme.
www.tempresources.apduk.org.uk/manage_apd.htm

(Caution. Not everything on the APD site is strictly true; the 'Learning Styles' page for example)

I appreciate that your DS has complex difficulties but I'm not sure that going down the 'Look & Say' route would be helpful.

I'm not sure how much use filling the OP up with "knowledge from an Internet group" is going to be if the available ed psych has a particular view and is able to follow up on it. If the OP fills herself up with opposing opinions from the Internet she'd be better off getting a diagnosis from a concurring specialist first (with all that that entails.) It's not much use barging into the consultation saying, "I've been reading posts on mumsnet and now I think you're completely wrong, Doctor."

Ed Psychs are just that, Educational Psychologists. They are not clinical specialists.

They are not even always particularly 'expert' when it comes to advising on how pedagogy for children with special needs. We had one at our school for years who hadn't a clue about phonics teaching, even though 'dyslexia' was one of the most common 'diagnoses' and specialist dyslexia teaching is always phonics based. She was very hot on 'Look and Say'

I have to say I agree with Gollum. This isn't a phonics bashing thread, doesn't need to be a look and say bashing thread.

not going to argue about ed psychs you get good and bad in every profession.

my dd school is brilliant at phonics. but any kids who are struggling with phonics switch to look and say in year 2. (knew that didnt know what it meant) All of them get there eventually.

phonics, look and say, meh. can't see it matters as long as get there. to my mind if one's not working and a professional whose got to grip with your child recommends the other seems to me that's worth a go

It does matter to the many thousands of children and adults failed by Look & Say

right. the one's who are failed by phonics? (oh wait that's just bad teaching? )

No judgement. horses for courses, one size doesn't fit all and all that.

No paperlantern the documented thousands left illiterate by Look & Say!

Righto.

if I'm ever in the position of teaching the documented illiterate thousands to read I will reach for the phonics.

thankfully at this moment in time I only really need to worry about trying out with my son an alternative approach recommended by a trained professional.

Thank you everyone who has recommended, either on this thread or through pm, schemes of the look and see variety that I can give a go.

Good Luck

as an aside I worried about my son although the FIVE Ed psychs he saw over six or seven years said such a good reader couldn't have a problem until secondary school when they finally admitted that there was a huge problem he didn't have any phonics!

I wonder if your comments are less about phonics vs look and say than the ed psychs that failed your son.

I am you had such a battle getting your son's difficulties recognised.