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Primary education

Join our Primary Education forum to discuss starting school and helping your child get the most out of it.

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Original poster

should i pull my dd out of school so council give her a Y3 place locally? :(

21 replies

Jugjeet · 31/10/2013 08:12

we are appealing for an in year admission In harrow as we moved from ealing and are still taking our daughter to school in ealing as there are no y3 places in harrow available, our middle dd is already in the local school and our youngest should get in next yr, we want our oldest to start here too,
she is first on the list and we know a child has left but that child was no. 31 in a class (all 3 classes have 31)
part of me feels if we took her out of school then the council would have to give her a place, we are just keeping her in school (with great difficulty) as its not right to keep her at home....anyone had any experience...could it backfire or should we just wait for the appeal hearing?many thanks in advance x

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Ladymuck · 31/10/2013 08:17

Well it could backfire in that the council don't have to place her in the same school as her siblings, but in any school that has a year 3 space. If you don't mind that she could still be at a school some distance from you but in the same local authority, then fair enough, but obviously once you give up the Ealing school place you will have difficulty in getting it back as you will go close to the bottom of any waiting list.

Have Harrow not offered any school place? At all?

Original poster

Jugjeet · 31/10/2013 08:35

thank you ladymuck :), initially we didn't ask about other schools cos we just assumed we would carry on in ealing (its just about doable) and that she was first on the list....so maybe get a place if someone left before sept, but that hasn't happened...I rang last week and they confirmed that there aren't any Y3 places available anyway....which is why we are appealing (also because we feel she should have that 31st place as the school are already running at 31)
last half term was tough for dd (and us) so...clutching at straws....

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RandomMess · 31/10/2013 08:37

Her being at school or not won't make a difference, it's all about whether they are forced to keep the class at 31 and admit her - as it's not a reception class I'm surprised that they haven't let your dd have the place

LIZS · 31/10/2013 08:41

Don't it would make any difference to LA tbh and might backfire at appeal if they think you are trying to manipulate it.

ClayDavis · 31/10/2013 08:48

They haven't given her a place because there isn't a place. If the PAN is 30, and there is not provision to increase it to say 31/32 at year 3, then the class is full even though 1 child is left. They can't offer a place off the waiting list.
A year 3 appeal will be on the balance of prejudice not infant class size. What you can do is use the fact that the class has had 31 children to help take apart the school's case that they couldn't cope with another child in the class.

MerryMarigold · 31/10/2013 08:51

Some of our classes are 33 (several schools are being enlarged this year), especially by Y3. What's with 31? I thought it was to do with ratios. They need a TA in the class, not good management by Head if there is that much demand and not enough space.

Original poster

Jugjeet · 31/10/2013 08:56

we assumed with a child leaving (another mum told us) that dd would get a place, thats when we found out she wouldn't until 4 kids (93 in Y3) had left! hence we are appealing now, i agree clay davis school unfair to say dd will cause prejudice if they are already operating at 93 in the year and that's what we put on appeal....appeal a bit daunting...anything else I can do to prepare?
thank u for advice all....figured taking her out not a good idea but getting to be a strain...

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Original poster

Jugjeet · 31/10/2013 08:58

I guess I need to find out ratios and class size and how long they were at 31 before the appeal....worried if the HT will help as theyre probably feeling annoyed that may get pushed to take another child....all schools in area are oversubscribed....so is inevitable...

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MerryMarigold · 31/10/2013 09:00

I don't know what to suggest as I know nothing of this system. However, if they feel you can keep going to Ealing, and there is space for her there, you may need to take your dd to doctor and start putting in place some things for how the commute is affecting her - tiredness, and whether there has been any drop in her academic growth at school. Would there be a chance of her getting into any other school at appeal? Would you be ok with that?

RandomMess · 31/10/2013 09:08

Initially they may have had to go over PAN due to succesful appeals based on mistakes made by the LEA - in those cases the LEA has no option but to admit over the PAN.

It's worth appealing especially if all the schools in the area of over subcribed anyway.

meditrina · 31/10/2013 09:08

That they've recently coped with 93 (year) and 31 (class) will strengthen your case to appeal. It will also help if you can show this has happened in other recent years (what are the sizes of yrs 4, 5 and 6?)

MerryMarigold: a school can set its PAN at whatever number it wishes (within reason), but once set it needs to be adhered to. If your school has a KS2 PAN of 31, that would be unusual but entirely permissible. It won't however help an appeal for a place at a school with a PAN of 30.

JugJeet: is there anything else about the school, other than the presence of a sibling, that would make it particularly suitable for DD? This is in terms of what the school offers (only local one with a choir for a musical DD etc). Transport/childcare difficulties don't count in the appeals process, so should be no more than mentioned in passing - not something to build a case on.

Also, are you on waiting lists for other local schools? It's not what you want most, but taking an awful commute out of your daily life in term time must surely be worth it in itself.

Original poster

Jugjeet · 31/10/2013 09:11

I guess we will have to wait to see what they offer her, at least she is still with her friends at the moment ... will have to weigh up pros and cons on the offer,thye will still end up over PAN at any other school anyway as all full...

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Original poster

Jugjeet · 31/10/2013 09:15

that's very useful meditrina...I did google appeals a bit but not fully as i wanted get a date sorted...so we did put that ...make new friends as new to area,be nearer her family,she is allergic to dairy so better to be close by and that she enjoys IT and music (school strengths) and weak in numeracy (school strength) ... seems to be what appeals are looking for....
maybe we should consider other local schools that might only need 1 child to leave for a place....

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Original poster

Jugjeet · 31/10/2013 09:16

my initial thinking was that 2 school changes seemed unfair on dd but I guess they adapt quickly,not had any experience re this ...

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RandomMess · 31/10/2013 09:18

I would ring all the local (and not so local) schools and ask where she would be on their waiting lists - as she wouldn't have a sibling there she may be further down the list.

I wonder if the LEA has any schools with spaces? If none of them do I'm not sure but perhaps that would strengthen your case - after all they have to offer you a school place somewhere I think????

Hopefully one of the experts will be along to tell you what he LEA has to do to accommodate her?

ClayDavis · 31/10/2013 09:40

I think, all the LA have to do is to find a place within a reason able distance. It wouldn't necessarily have to be in their authority either it could be in a neighbouring one if the schools are close enough.

Not sure about reasonable distance but I think I've seen people on here say about 45mins-1hr travelling time.

If there aren't any schools that fill those criteria, then the LA can try and force school to admit over their PAN.

RandomMess · 31/10/2013 09:44

Yes Clay that is what I was wondering - also if it's over 3 miles (I think it is) then they have to provide school transport?

Original poster

Jugjeet · 31/10/2013 10:07

travel time to ealing 40 mins or so,so if LEA offer something that far then may as well stick to where we are as same travel time and she knows the place and has friends there....hopefully get an appeal date soon...
thank u all ...really appreciate the advice

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RandomMess · 31/10/2013 10:09

Just find out the facts first - there is a post called "admissions" I think who would be able to help you.

AuntieStella · 31/10/2013 10:17

The LEA must find a place. But it will be in the nearest school with a vacancy (which might be a school you don't like and could be up to an hour's journey away), or if no vacancies in a reasonable distance, then they must activate the Fair Access Protocol to force a school to go over numbers and admit - but that will be the school which (in LEA's opinion) can best accommodate an extra pupil, so again coukd still be a school you don't want quite some way away.

The one difference (which might be important) is that if LEA place you in a school over 2 miles away (or 3 depending on age of pupil) then you will qualify for free transport.

titchy · 31/10/2013 13:15

How many are in KS3 is irrelevant - it's how many in the year group that counts. So you only have to wait for one to leave not four. However you have a fairly good chance of getting a place from appeal anyway I'd have thought. Chase them for a date.

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