Teachers do not adhere to Statemented 1 to 1 support, do not believe in sub-levels, make APP assessments up....How much of what parents are told by schools about teaching is a box ticking exercise?

[Regards]

Following on from this thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/primary/1859219-Im-a-teacher-and-happy-to-answer-any-questions

and this:
community.tes.co.uk/tes_primary/f/36/t/381051.aspx?pi2132219857=1

I realised I was incredibly gullible when my DC first started school. What exactly should we believe concerning what the teachers tell us, how much is a PR job to cover up the ugly truth?

Swallowed: if the union can't help, fine. So go for my plan B and tell the parents to get legal advice. If they don't do that, fine, you've done all you can. But if you're dealing with a parent like Starlight who is rightly worried that their child isn't getting what is in the statement, you support them.

Inclusionist: again, I don't think people on this thread have a problem with what you say your practice was, because you did it the right way - you called a review which I assume involved the parents and explained your thinking and why you were proposing that the statement should be changed. What people are concerned about is teachers who just quietly ignore the statement and in particular divert 1:1s without consulting or telling anyone, particularly when their reason for doing so is not that the child doesn't need it but that they want to use the TA somewhere else.

i left teaching not because of the kids but because of that culture.

you have no idea of the frustration of knowing what is needed, caring about kids and wanting to do the best for them and constantly getting fucked over from on high.

initially you fight thinking you can make them see sense or present it in the right educational terms or legal terms or whatever. eventually you realise they just don't give a fuck what happens behind your classroom door.

that's your problem and there is a total denial that the culture and system in place influences what happens in there and hamstrings what you can do. it is a pretense that the classroom is the world and nothing exists outside of it itms - as if the kids land in your room in a bubble untouched by policy, funding, resources, fucked up behaviour management systems that are failing, sen not being met, etc etc etc.

there is also a total pretense that mixed ability teaching and total inclusion can be achieved without any extra resources or people or information even.

now this was secondary and as i've acknowledged i found it worse here than in another area so it may have been particularly bad here but if i'd have had parents attacking me and blaming me for all of the above as if i had any control over it i dare say i'd have quit a lot sooner than i did and a lot less supposedly unteachable, low ability, sen kids would have had grades a-c in at least one subject on their exam results than subsequently did.

Good quality, accurate quantitative and qualitative provision mapping is essential IMO. It provides the evidence of what is actually going on and can be used as evidence for reviews and further action. IEPs alone are no good as they only focus on 2 or 3 targets per term. A more overall picture is needed of progression. Having this would help support any decisions made regarding funding.

whose going to do that regards? please don't tell me you just think a teacher can pull another few hours a day out of her arse?

trouble is the demand is always on the teacher rather than higher up.

which a) is a waste of effort because the teacher doesn't have the power so you're shouting at the wrong person

b) means less and less teachers will actually survive (drop out rates for talented young teachers are incredibly high)

c) it continues the pretense that everything is a classroom issue rather than systemic issue so nothing changes

as it is everything is set up so efforts are channeled into fighting for my child. understandable.

but systemic change doesn't come from being the squeekiest wheel about one child. the efforts need to be wider scale and about every child.

In the interim 6 months between the child arriving and the review we certainly wouldn't be following the statement though nenny. We would be trying all sorts to really get to know the child and work out what really worked.

Every kid would come in with a 'full' statement which would name 35hrs but from day one they would be on 1:4 because those were the ratios we ran in our classes. Very, very few children (generally 3 or so out of 40) actually worked with a 1:1 ratio.

If we blindly followed the statement they arrived with how could we have ever worked out how to personalise their curriculum?

Just to be clear, I didn't & don't blame the teachers. I also think that part of the problem is the lack of SN schools for those with MLD. My child is thriving in his.

The reality is is that he was a square peg in a round hole and I am forever grateful to the teacher who very quietly, kindly and (I could tell) after great thought told us this.

Yes we did that, the senior teachers, because it was generally considered that we were best placed to make a judgement about the child's educational provision needs as we knew them best in an educational setting. The EP service and the County SEN department were happy to treat us as knowledgable, professional peers. I'm not sure why parents wouldn't regard teachers in the same light.

Now that is scary. It suggest no other consultation has taken place and unilateral decisions have just been made. SENs needs are complex, the research is not even complete, 'experts' disagree, the DSM is written and re-written. Look at the history and what people used to consider acceptable, in fact duty bound to carry out in terms of practise. Look at what has happened in France... Professionals have to consult with all parties, agreement has to be sought. Parents are next of kin, they must be consulted.

That is what has happened over and over again on this thead- any teacher who has suggested that they might actually be well placed to contribute to decisions about what will help a child to progress has been called arrogant.

I don't know why you send your child to school TBH if you have so little faith in the professionals that work in them.

Swallowed I would have quite happily done that myself if you let collect the information!

let me ^

Inclusionist In answer to your question, even professionals are fallible.

Does that mean you should not point out flaws in thinking? No because there may be some very serious consequences.

We deal with fallible people in every walk of life. All we want is dialogue and engagement.

The system is what we have in this country. Not everyone can afford to educate privately. There is not a free market in the State system. Home Education is not always achievable or appropriate.

Should we give up? Definitely not. Our children have the potential to become the most outstanding and inspirational individuals.

stillslightly - i tend to agree. i know people seem to look down on SN schools and it's all about staying MS but given how specialised they can be, how tailored and how they can recruit for specific issues etc i really do think it's a shame we've closed so many.

ds does not have any sen that i'm aware of - well obviously he does because we all do but none that go so far as to push him into the 'really must be met or this is never going to work' bracket. if he did i think i'd be inclined towards wanting him to go to the edcuational facility that specialised in meeting those needs and had better staff ratios and facilities and flexibility etc to meet them.

i don't know though. a relative has down's syndrome and her mother was determined to have her in MS school even though it was really hard for her all the way. she now (well beyond school age now) lives in a special facility where she has her own flat, has work but has support and a community network around her and is absolutely thriving and happy. i suspect she'd have been happier being somewhere tailored to her needs for education than keeping on being squished into that round hole that didn't fit her but for reasons totally valid her mother wanted there.

in an ideal world - which we're far from - i wish there was a way to combine ms education and special education schools and staff on the same site and have free flow between the two that wasn't stigmatised in any way. just pretending ms school can do everything and shoving everyone in the same room equals inclusion doesn't work imho and is doing no one any favours.

Inclusionist I said she sounded arrogant, because she did. Read that particular statement again.

Or x child is now able to work for very short bursts of time(5 mins say) independently. Let's do that and have the TA elsewhere. I'm sorry but I do think, in these situations, I know a hell of a lot better than the Ed Psych etc who barely sees the child in the whole year.

And she's saying "have the TA elsewhere." So she's deciding to change the TA provision and have the TA somewhere else, on her own say so. I'm sorry, but if the teachers had that authority, fine. But they don't. And the concern then becomes "if they are ignoring this aspect of the statement, what other aspects are they ignoring?"

The fact that the school is to follow the statement legally is to protect the children. Not ALL teachers (or schools) are looking out for the child's best interests. Parents need to be able to trust that these statements are being followed. How else can they be comfortable leaving their children in the school's care?

Who was it who said schools are like a microcosm of society?

Society includes those with SNs and SENs. I believe in inclusion. We area all part of society and the community around us. No one should have to hide away, segregated and be forgotten about. If there was more inclusion schools would have to adapt and probably would look very different to how they are now.

That model does exist swallowed but believe me it has it's challenges because there is constant friction between what the mainstream school and special school needs. There are teachers who signed up for a mainstream job who end up teaching children with significant SEN and some of them resent it.

There are many, many plus points to the model, but it is not utopia.

My DS goes to cubs, tennis and other activities where he mixes with mainstream children. I do not feel he is separated from anything at all.

He is simply taught in a setting that has been tailored to his needs. He is learning life skills as well as maths etc & I am so grateful that we were steered to going for a look around.

He is far, far more included in daily school life where he is now & short of the mainstream teachers coming up with a cute for his genetic condition I'm not sure what else they could have done.

Cute = cure

StillSlighty I don't doubt it. In the current system Special Schools can be the best places for some children. I said that if there was more inclusions schools would look very different to how they do now becasue they would have to.

Idealistic? Yes, but I can dream....If no one ever had dreams of a better life there would be no progress.

'all of this angst at teachers because they're the ones you actually see is not on. do people actively blame nurses for the state of the nhs or the fact that their dad needs an operation and isn't getting one just because nurses are the people they see?'

The angst is at the teachers collusion and failure to inform parents of unlawful behaviour of the school, as well as the arrogance they have around the justification for doing neither.

'Arrogant because after working with a child everyday I look for small steps forward that we can make ?'

There are plenty of 'small steps' a child can make WITH their TA. Why so much focus on their removal or is it because that is the target that will make most tangible difference to the TEACHER and the SCHOOL as opposed to the CHILD?

'You would obviously prefer I just didn't bother actually reviewing the child and their progress daily and making my professional judgement about what to do next.'

Don't be ridiculous. However your review should incorporate how every minute of that TA's time with that child should be utilised to progress the child.

'Better placed than an Ed Psych?

The Ed Psych has amongst his/her tools the ability to write flexibility into the statement and to make it clear where and if a teacher can make a call over the use of the TA. If you don't like what the EP has written or don't agree, you need to take it up with them or their line manager, no arrogantly undermine their advice to the potential detriment of the child.

'I don't actually treat the parents I work with as idiots or in complete contempt- the way many of you do with teachers I have never had a parent complain about the way I work with their child who has ASN.'

Could that be because parents are not informed when the provision for their child is cut?

'The HT & SENCO had no idea what to do to get things moving'

And teachers here are complaining that EP's are incompetent. FFS, it is their JOB to know.

I bet they got all huffy when as a parent you explained their job to them!?

'She' does have the right to do this. Im not in England. I work in partnership with parents and colleagues and they all give me their support to do this using my professional judgement and experience. Elsewhere doesnt mean scrubbing the corridor floors. It is in the room. The TA is there ready to step in at the drop of a hat. Or I am. Because after all I am the child's teacher and have a role to play in their school life. I don't believe the 1:1 has to be the TA. it can be me too.