Teachers do not adhere to Statemented 1 to 1 support, do not believe in sub-levels, make APP assessments up....How much of what parents are told by schools about teaching is a box ticking exercise?

[Regards]

Following on from this thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/primary/1859219-Im-a-teacher-and-happy-to-answer-any-questions

and this:
community.tes.co.uk/tes_primary/f/36/t/381051.aspx?pi2132219857=1

I realised I was incredibly gullible when my DC first started school. What exactly should we believe concerning what the teachers tell us, how much is a PR job to cover up the ugly truth?

GetStuffezed as an outstanding teacher in my outstanding school.

I get that....(only too well) and I am just a lowly parent....

Jaynebxl You really have to read more than the beginning and the end. I am pleased when a child can cope with working more independently (as are other parents of children with SEN.) The parents just need to be informed and the paperwork accurately reflect what is happening, so the Statements can be updated.

Swallowed: "what do you want the teacher to do if there are several statemented children in the room meant to have one to one and only one ta there? do you want her to share the ta and herself the best she can to make sure all of those statemented children get as much one to one as possible or do you not?"

This is going back a couple of pages but I think in many ways it is the crux of the discussion. In that situation, the teacher is closing her eyes to the fact that both the school and local authority are acting unlawfully. If each of those children needs 1:1 then that is what they should get, and the teacher is doing no-one any favours by trying to cope by sharing the TA round. What I would want the teacher to do is to kick up a fuss with the SENCO and Head. If the excuse is that they haven't got the money then I would want the Head to apply to the LA for the top-up funding on each of those statements that the school is entitled to. In the final analysis, if none of that works, I would want the teacher to tell the parents what is going on and to suggest that they take legal advice, pointing out that the children will be entitled to legal aid in their own right. If a teacher does nothing and tries to cope, she is not being a hero; she is condoning the fact that each of those children is being failed badly.

I think also when fear of punishment, becomes the primary motivating factor for action, in teaching, instead of what is right, the system is corrupted (along with the people who collude in the corruption).

Undoubtedly some SMTs, when faced with cuts, can put a lot of pressure on some teachers. The law may never catch up with some individual teachers however (the dispute is with the LA) if they keep everyone in the dark. 'Who will know?' has been a sentiment echoed on here and TES.

However the truth does have a habit of getting out....

Reviews of children with a full panel of professionals do not happen weekly or monthly. Often they are only annual with shorter term targets worked on termly by staff. Allocation of hours always happens annually. Often a child will make good progress and as a teacher, I will use my professional judgement to change things. For example, needs full time 1:1 outside. Well actually they can manage a break time now independently but still need that support at lunchtime so why don't we give that a try? Or x child is now able to work for very short bursts of time(5 mins say) independently. Let's do that and have the TA elsewhere. I'm sorry but I do think, in these situations, I know a hell of a lot better than the Ed Psych etc who barely sees the child in the whole year. The termly targets I write with the SFL teacher will change to reflect this. The annual review will not change until the next one. We actually all want the child to progress and move on. Complete dependence on a TA is something I aim to move away from if at all possible.

However the truth does have a habit of getting out....

Interesting thought, however, I'd prefer it not be at the expense of my child. The one and only time his MS school did not have the appropriate 1:1 available, he disappeared. He ran out of the classroom during a busy morning when there was a school programme (a situation that was guaranteed to create huge anxiety in him) and that meant the school gates were open and people were everywhere. He was a runner, and they knew it. It took ages to find him. That was 3 years ago, and I still remember how panicked I was (and the school staff was as well).

They made sure it never happened again, but it could have had a very different ending. He has no sense of danger and would walk off with anyone or walk out in front of a moving car. I personally would not want my DS to pay the price for them cutting corners and not having the appropriate support in place.

I think those that think that sharing the TA is "better than nothing" are being rather flippant. If instead of teachers, your school brought in unqualified people off the street that just sat in the classrooms and monitored the children, would you think "well, it's better than nothing?" After all, if it's all the school can afford and they don't have the funding, right?

Or x child is now able to work for very short bursts of time(5 mins say) independently. Let's do that and have the TA elsewhere. I'm sorry but I do think, in these situations, I know a hell of a lot better than the Ed Psych etc who barely sees the child in the whole year.

Wow, the arrogance. It's not your call to make that decision.

Are you seriously telling me that these children are only reviewed once a year??? DS1's school had a meeting with us every other month to review his IEP and discuss how he was progressing and any changes for his TA at that time. That way it was all discussed and done with our full knowledge.

Or x child is now able to work for very short bursts of time(5 mins say) independently. Let's do that and have the TA elsewhere. I'm sorry but I do think, in these situations, I know a hell of a lot better than the Ed Psych etc who barely sees the child in the whole year.

This will not come out of the blue though. The possibility should be discussed at Annual Review or built into Initial Statement and agreed to, with definitions of how this can be consistently done.

As a parent I have always been open to this, as other professionals should be. However the paperwork must accurately reflect this and quantify the occurrence...the parents informed. This shows the progress made. This is what is not consistently happening in this country.

Indy: "For example, needs full time 1:1 outside. Well actually they can manage a break time now independently but still need that support at lunchtime so why don't we give that a try? Or x child is now able to work for very short bursts of time(5 mins say) independently. Let's do that and have the TA elsewhere."

But in that situation the likelihood is that you still need the TA at least hovering in the background. A child who needs support at that level isn't going to become better overnight; the fact that he manages at breaktimes for, say two or three weeks doesn't mean that he won't have a bad day or be provoked by another child. If a TA isn't around to step in, the whole thing can spiral into disaster so that he never has the confidence to cope on his own again. If after a few weeks everyone really is confident he can cope, you call for an early review to talk about reducing support. In the meantime, you talk to the parents about it. What you don't do is make a unilateral decision to ignore the statement without consulting with the parents.

Nennypops

Do you know if children are still entitled to legal aid since the changes to legal aid this year? I can only find information about helplines for advice.

And as this point I walk away. As I said when I first started posting on this thread, I have had quite enough of hearing how as a teacher, I am basically an ill educated, lazy idiot who does not give 2 hoots about the kids I teach.

Arrogant because after working with a child everyday I look for small steps forward that we can make ? Guilty as charged then. You would obviously prefer I just didn't bother actually reviewing the child and their progress daily and making my professional judgement about what to do next. Better placed than an Ed Psych who tells me that the solution to challenging behaviour is to sit the kids looking out the windows with their back to their peers? Yip I think I am? Or the Ed Psych who observes for 30 mins a year? Yes I am

If a child is managing break time alone then of course the TA is still there. However, they will be away from the child, observing from a distance. But if you were to be looking at the

Posted too soon

Looking at playground for evidence I was failing it may well look to you as if no-one was there. Especially if they had dared to talk to another child. On top of the TA the playground is well staffed by supervisors too.

Yes audited reviews are annual but as I already stayed, school ones are termly. We cannot increase or decrease TA provision in these, even if we feel it is outdated. At no point did I say that my action plan is to make it all up and do what the hell I want. I would talk these things through with the SFL teacher and management. While things can be gradual there are occasions whereby things can change suddenly for both the better and worse. I also did not say I don't bother to talk to parents about it. Of course I bloody do. It's a partnership. Steps forward are to be celebrated ( often there has been enormous parental input at home in order for us to make the smallest step at home) and problems and new concerns are shared.

I don't actually treat the parents I work with as idiots or in complete contempt- the way many of you do with teachers I have never had a parent complain about the way I work with their child who has ASN.

Oh indyandlara, Don't you get what we are saying?

It is about communication and transparency, accountability and good record keeping, genuine consultancy and working as a team, including the parents. That is all. It is what being a professional is being about and I am not saying you aren't, just that some aren't.

Cross post lara and I think we are arguing at cross purposes. You do all this? I'd be happy with you as my DC's teacher.

nenny - the teacher may well be telling her line manager every single day that those children are under supported in the meantime they're still needing teaching. she is on the front line.

her line manager, their line manager, the la etc are the ones who are meant to deal with all this - the teacher is meant to teach and that and the preparation for it takes up all of their time and then some and others further up the food chain have the ability and responsibility to follow up on problems.

like any place of work their is line management - someone at the end of the food chain does not have power over everything - they have to report it to the person above them.

all of this angst at teachers because they're the ones you actually see is not on. do people actively blame nurses for the state of the nhs or the fact that their dad needs an operation and isn't getting one just because nurses are the people they see?

this 'make the la do this', 'apply for extra funding', etc are just not within a teacher's scope of influence.

It is such a fine line in terms if support. As I said (pages ago now I think) my done attended mainstream with 32.5 hrs in his statement. He had a separate lunch cover & I am in ok doubt that his main 1:1 did all of the SLT for the infants on an IEP including communicating with the SALT. Obviously this meant she was away from him for significant chunks of time. Whilst I understand that it made sense for her to do that from a schools perspective as his parent I was pissed off about it.

On the other hand (being a contrary sort ) when he moved to his SN school they had to start again at making him independent. He wasn't even able to get his own pencil without prompting, such was the 'mothering' that had been given by his TA.

If I could go back I would actually be more involved in finding out how the time with his 1:1 was used rather than the amount of time.

A large part of me thinks that it is an impossible situation. I'm just not happy that my child was the one whose statemented hours were used elsewhere. I also think it's okay to be unhappy about it.

OMG - I'm sorry about all the errors! Am out and posting from phone.

Indy, it is perfectly possible to bring an annual review forward. If you feel it would be in a child's interests to vary the support arrangements, that's precisely when you should do that. But I do feel that your type of practice is not really what people are complaining about; if you fully involve parents, you are doing precisely what people on this thread are asking for. The point is that some teachers misguidedly keep quiet, and also that they divert 1:1 TAs even when the statemented child unquestionably still needs it.

Banished, my understanding is that legal aid is still available for special educational needs and discrimination cases.

Oh & I absolutely agree that Ed Psychs often do very little in terms if supporting had school. In fact my biggest ever argument was with the Ed Psych. Such very, very poor understanding but that may have just been ours.

nenny my experience was that in fact it was not easy to get an emergency annual review. It was only thanks to some advice given on here that I was able to put my foot down. Still had to wait 7 weeks though....
The HT & SENCO had no idea what to do to get things moving.

as a teacher you can have the same unsupported child with massive ebd issues for example bounced back to your classroom over and over with a remarkably fast turnaround even when they've sworn at you, threatened you, disrupted a whole class over and over again.

literally you can be telling all and sundry this is not viable, this child is not able to be in the classroom, these 29 other kids are being failed by this and i am being failed by it and they do.not.give.a.shit.

now i know most of you don't care about how it is for teachers - i'm not telling you this to make you feel sorry for teachers i'm telling you to try and give you some context of understanding how powerless teachers are!

you are IN the classroom - you don't get to leave, you don't get to control who is in there, you don't get support just because you need it and can rationalise absolutely WHY you need it and WHY the children in that classes education is being fucked without it. you do the best you can in a system that dumps all the responsibility upon you without any control over the set up and seems to actively make decisions and do things to the detriment of the classroom.

i suspect i'm wasting my breath here. but do think of teachers and education as you think of nurses and the nhs - we are not the puppet masters.

Swallowed, if the teacher's line manager is not ensuring that the school complies with the statement, then the teacher should probably involve the union. But what she should also do is to tell parents what is going on and suggest that they take legal advice. You can do it pretty discreetly, just tell them to phone someone like SOS-SEN who can tell them which solicitors to go to and who can do legal aid.

I think it's really interesting how little professional credit teachers have been given on this thread.

When I worked in a Special School we used to receive children, teach them for 6 months then call a review and re-write the 'recommended provision' section of their statement to reflect what they actually needed. Yes we did that, the senior teachers, because it was generally considered that we were best placed to make a judgement about the child's educational provision needs as we knew them best in an educational setting. The EP service and the County SEN department were happy to treat us as knowledgable, professional peers. I'm not sure why parents wouldn't regard teachers in the same light.

Swallowed I agree with you actually. There is little point blaming the teachers for things that are often beyond their control. However as that parent it makes you want to scream. A lot.

I can see that the teachers want too as well though !

so nenny you think the unions have the power then? really? to change the school and go over managements heads?

the union would be over run. this is the normal working conditions of teachers a lot of the time. you have no control and very little back up or responsiveness from senior management who are often little yes men who are senior management because of their ability to not give a flying fuck about their colleagues or the children or the wider goals of a school and to instead just apply whatever the next yes man above them tells them to apply.

my experience in schools around here (did seem different when i worked in brighton and hove but that may have been that i was young and naive and didn't see it as much i guess) is that GOOD teachers, GOOD members of a school with a good vision of the school, good meta understanding of what is needed, where the strengths are, what needs dealing with etc have a glass ceiling over their heads.

they will get so far up on the pastoral side of things then stop. they will never be given the big boy jobs because they actually care about the school, the kids, the staff.

i dare say it's much the same in industry but without children at stake.