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Original poster

Phonics Test Year 1 Query

256 replies

NigellaEllaElla · 14/06/2013 12:12

DS is doing the "Test" next week. I did a few flash card words with him last night and just have a query.

He sounds out the word but if it has a "y" at the end he sounds it as "yu" as in the letter name, not sound. (Not sure yu is best way of explaining it but can't think of alternative) rather than "ee" but then still says the word correctly.

So for "Happy" he might say "H a p p yu - Happy"

Because he is saying "yu" not "ee" when sounding will this count as a fail even though he knows the word correctly?

Bloody stupid test. He's a really good reader for his age, possibly a little too good cause I don't think it will do him any favours in a test like this!

Thanks in advance for your help.

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pickledsiblings · 14/06/2013 18:26

I was thinking of a short made up word like 'rey' as possibly presenting a problem??

learnandsay · 14/06/2013 18:27

Day has y as yu
as does holiday which is a multisyllabic word. It may once, in the distant past, have been a compound word, but not any longer.

mrz · 14/06/2013 18:28

"rey" could be pronounced "ray" or "ree" but not with a consonant /yuh/ sound

Pozzled · 14/06/2013 18:28

'Rey' would be harder, certainly, but could be pronounced to rhyme with either 'key' or 'they'. Either would be scored correctly I think. It couldn't be r-e-yuh though.

mrz · 14/06/2013 18:29

no it doesn't learnandsay it has two sounds /d/ & /ai/

Pozzled · 14/06/2013 18:30

Learnandsay You say 'day' with a 'yuh' sound? I don't think I have ever heard that pronunciation.

daftdame · 14/06/2013 18:31

learndandsay How do you say day? (I'm imagining dayoo? ^) Grin

I like Chaucer's spellings which spell enough 'ynogh'.

Feenie · 14/06/2013 18:47

They would be unlikely to choose anything as ambiguous as 'rey' - the previous alien words in both the sample and last year's test were more straightforward.

mrz · 14/06/2013 19:02

I agree it isn't likely that the check will include

Original poster
NigellaEllaElla · 14/06/2013 19:52

Sorry, for delay, only just caught up.

With regards son, he will read an alien word/unfamiliar word with a y at the end and say "y uh" but pronounce the word ending "ee" So I do believe he has been taught correctly as he knows what sound the letter in that place in the word makes but he recognises the letter as a y.

I did speak to a Teaching Assistant today about it and used this exact example with her and she said it had been something she'd noticed a few times in the last few days with other children too, but that they were pronouncing the word correctly whether a real word or an alien word.

Interestingly his teacher yesterday spent some time with the parents after school just explaining to them what to expect etc and she did say that the more able readers often didn't perform as well in a test of this kind.

Ultimately I actually think the test is a totally ridiculous waste of time (putting it politely) but I want to make sure I am helping him as much as I can not just for the test but for his future reading ability, but the fact remains his reading is really good and he knows what sounds it should make, I just think he's in a bit of a habit.

I'm surprised Mrz that it would be marked incorrect even if he is saying the word right. Seems crazy you can fail yet read the word perfectly?!

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Pozzled · 14/06/2013 20:12

I think you misunderstand Nigella. If the child says the word perfectly (on their final attempt if they try more than once) then they will be marked as correct.
Wrt the point about 'able readers not performing as well'- that depends on what you regard as an able reader. I think child is not an able reader unless they can have a good go stab at reading words that are unfamiliar to them- such as names.

Original poster
NigellaEllaElla · 14/06/2013 20:24

Hi Pozzled, earlier in the thread I think Mrz stated that she would mark it incorrectly if he said y rather than ee, maybe if he then says the work correctly anyway she would mark it correct after all then.

With regards the "able readers" whilst I agree phonics is a big part of being able to read well, we have a LOT of words in the English language that phonics simply don't work with, there are many parts that slot together to help us to read in my opinion.

My son doesn't phonetically correctly pronounce a y at the end of a word BUT he does know how to read a word with a y at the end, either a real, alien or unfamiliar word.

Suppose we'll see what next week brings, just want to help him all I can but don't really want to start changing how he does things this weekend in case it confuses him!

OP posts:
SizzleSazz · 14/06/2013 20:31

I'm not sure why it is a waste if time and you feel the need to help him. It is a test if the teaching not the dc.

Our school never even mention it and the children don't know they are being 'tested', just a fun activity.

SizzleSazz · 14/06/2013 20:32

I'm a parent btw, not a teacher.

Original poster
NigellaEllaElla · 14/06/2013 20:36

SizzleSazz I'd put money on the fact it will be out of the window in 5yrs time if not sooner.

Is it not natural to want to help your child?

I'm not sure that our children know they're being tested to be honest, us parents do, but don't think it's discussed as a test to the children, not sure.

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Pozzled · 14/06/2013 20:46

I'm pretty sure that when mrz said 'I'd mark it incorrect' she meant if a child read something like 'flump-yuh' instead of 'flump-ee' for the nonsense word ''flumpy'.

It is the blended word that is given the mark of correct or incorrect, not the sounding out. A child can 'sound out' incorrectly, read the word (as a whole) correctly and be marked right.

Incidentally, I disagree with you about there being a lot of words in English that 'phonics simply don't work well with'.

SizzleSazz · 14/06/2013 20:48

Oh, I do agree with helping your children but the school should (in an ideal world) be leading this. Hopefully the test will highlight that the teaching is not fully meeting the expectations of your son and they need to put extra resource in to help rectify it.

I am not sure that if the teachers have not spotted this knowledge gap yet that the test would solve that, but I guess that's a different issue

Original poster
NigellaEllaElla · 14/06/2013 21:28

Thanks Pozzled that does make sense.

Off the top of my head - though, rough, eight, cough, live (in a house), what, has, was, want, pretty, people, beautiful, Wednesday, eyes, water, friends...... There are hundreds, if not thousands of words, that phonics rules don't apply too.

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mrz · 14/06/2013 21:29

No NigellaEllaElla Mrz didn't say she would mark it incorrect if the child said the word correctly but she would mark it incorrect if the child pronounced the word with a "yuh"

ipadquietly · 14/06/2013 21:38

FWIW Ofsted didn't even mention the phonics check when they visited recently.

Quotes from report (March 2013):
'Standards in reading and mathematics are significantly above the national average...'

'...attainment in Key Stage 1 has risen, particularly in reading...By the end of Key Stage 2, standards reached are significantly above average.'

'...Attainment is strongest in reading...'

'...Pupils from all ability groups enjoy reading...'

Our phonics check results were absolutely dire last year.

Original poster
NigellaEllaElla · 14/06/2013 21:38

Thanks Mrz glad I misunderstood Smile

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Original poster
NigellaEllaElla · 14/06/2013 21:50

*and I can't believe I put "too" instead of "to" Blush

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thegreylady · 14/06/2013 22:02

ghoti=fish

gh as in rough
o as in women
ti as in patient

Oh the joys of English :)

Feenie · 14/06/2013 22:06

Complete bollocks though - gh wouldn't be found at the beginning of a word and ti would never be at the end.

Bunnyjo · 14/06/2013 22:06

...and she did say that the more able readers often didn't perform as well in a test of this kind.

That is the opposite of what DD's teacher said and I would be very Hmm about a teacher saying something like that. Yes, there are pseudo words put in there that are designed to ascertain a child's ability to decode using phonics, but a 5/6yr old is going to encounter unknown words every day and, if they are an able reader, they will be able to read them despite not knowing what they mean.