Phonics Test Year 1 Query

[NigellaEllaElla]

DS is doing the "Test" next week. I did a few flash card words with him last night and just have a query.

He sounds out the word but if it has a "y" at the end he sounds it as "yu" as in the letter name, not sound. (Not sure yu is best way of explaining it but can't think of alternative) rather than "ee" but then still says the word correctly.

So for "Happy" he might say "H a p p yu - Happy"

Because he is saying "yu" not "ee" when sounding will this count as a fail even though he knows the word correctly?

Bloody stupid test. He's a really good reader for his age, possibly a little too good cause I don't think it will do him any favours in a test like this!

Thanks in advance for your help.

[mrz]

"But mrz, he will only fail when encountering new words" and he will only fail the phonics test if he can't read new words Biscuitsneeded and isn't better to find out early before it becomes a problem...

[Dentvincent]

I've posted about this previously with my DD. I think one problem with the phonics test and reasonably good readers is that they try and 'read' the word by reading a word that looks similar - I know this suggests their phonic skill is poor - but I think part is comprehension of what the teacher wants them to do. We've spent a week with my DD telling her that it is a phonics test and not a reading test ( really don't think the kids should know it is a test at 5 btw! - not my choice - the schools). Wednesday sent home - after practice test at school - all correct - previously we had been told - 'not progressing well' - all of 2 weeks ago! Only difference is that she now understands what she is doing with the test. I think lots of children use their phonic skills when reading along with context etc. this is a phonics test and is not testing reading a book or comprehension.
Mrz - her practice test came home - just had words - no alien faces - do they have to have aliens next to fake words?

[mrz]

The actual check book has pictures of strange creatures next to all the made up words
www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/187459/phonics_20screening_20check_20sample_20materials.pdf.pdf

the teacher will also tell the child when the words aren't real words

I imagine what has come home is either a score sheet or a set of words someone has made the "official" sample materials only contain 4 real and 4 made up words. None of my class have seen the samples or practiced for the check on Monday.

I wonder how schools explain the fact that all the good accurate readers in the school where I teach scored 40/40 in last year's check or all the schools where every child passed the check.

[mrz]

Just for the record it isn't a test it is a screening check to identify gaps in phonic knowledge early

[maizieD]

We've spent a week with my DD telling her that it is a phonics test and not a reading test ( really don't think the kids should know it is a test at 5 btw! - not my choice - the schools).

Firstly, big black mark for the school if they have told the children it is a 'test'. Amazing how some schools seem determined to use their pupils' self esteem as a weapon against the Phonics Check. They tell the kids that it is a 'test'; which is a completely unnecessary thing to do and then they bleat about children feeling like failures at age 6. Well, whose fault would that be then?

Secondly; why don't parents tell kids (if they have to say anything at all) that the CHECK (not test) is to find out if they have any gaps in their phonics learning so that they can be given help if they need it.

[mrz]

The whole purpose of reading is to derive meaning and if you can't read the words it makes extracting meaning an impossible task

[Dentvincent]

Maizie D - that is exactly what we have told DD - still hard to reconcile with DD telling us 'she failed the test and is rubbish at phonics' (what I came home to at the end of last 1/2term). Felt for a while like I was climbing a mountain to regain self confidence - forget about phonics!!

Mrz - the sheet has 40 words split into 4s - some groups of real others of fake. I would agree I don't think they should be practising the test - but I'm grateful that she seems to have worked out what to do and has enjoyed school the last couple of days.

[mrz]

The actual check is a booklet with 4 words per page, one page real the next made up, next real and so on...

[maizieD]

still hard to reconcile with DD telling us 'she failed the test and is rubbish at phonics' (what I came home to at the end of last 1/2term)

It gets worse and worse! So they're giving the children 'practice' tests (because it sure as hell wasn't the 'real' one last 1/2 term) and telling them that they've 'failed' them, are they? If that is so then there is something utterly irresponsible and insensitive going on and I'd want to see the school being held to acount for needlessly stressing your DD (and no doubt others)

[Dentvincent]

Apparently the word 'fail' wasn't used directly - but they were told they hadn't 'passed'!!
I have been into school ..... I don't think I was the first...... And my DD seems to have coped better with this perceived failure than some of the others.

[Feenie]

That's truly appalling.

[daftdame]

As an aside from phonics, but reading related, my child does comprehension quizzes with each reading book.

They are on the i-pad which is quite fun (likes it) but not allowed book with them, so like a test. Also knows has to receive a certain percentage to pass, and remarked upon and sent down an increment of level if not above 70% as far as I can tell.

At least he's getting used to exams, and is developing 'revision' techniques (mostly involving me quizzing extensively). Will also discuss which books are 'easier' quiz wise and has been known to avoid books which are too 'long' or at the higher end of a level .

[Biscuitsneeded]

Mrz, I'm certainly not saying phonics is pointless. Far from it. All I'm saying is that a. there other strategies that can be employed to read an unfamiliar word and b. an ability to 'read' nonsense words doesn't tell us anything meaningful, nor does it help a child to grasp that the purpose of reading is not to be able to make out loud a series of sounds that the teacher requires you to make, but to infer meaning, enjoy the narrative, in short to comprehend. I have read with kids who are way ahead of my son in their ability to 'read' phonically, but I am not convinced they understood what they were reading. They made the right sounds because they followed the rules. My son may not be reaching those giddy heights in the reading scheme, but I know he enjoys his reading, gets the jokes, anticipates what might happen next, empathises with the characters etc. It is for that reason that I am completely happy with his reading and I won't be alarmed if he doesn't pass the test.

[daftdame]

Biscuit I everybody would agree there are lots of skills involved in reading and phonics is one of those skills.

I think where the difference of opinion lies is whether phonics is the primary skill for decoding. Myself, I would accept that sight recognition helps, in fluency for example, however I do believe nothing can beat phonics when faced with an unfamiliar word. Added to this, I do not know whether sight recognition needs to be taught.

Contextual understanding, whilst it may help when phonics knowledge is undeveloped, shouldn't be relied upon to the cost of developing greater phonics knowledge. Contextual understanding in my opinion is more useful when used to deepen comprehension.

I feel that just because a child is very proficient at decoding it does not mean their comprehension is inferior just that they are very good at decoding. This is a bit of a stereotype and one to be avoided, in my opinion. They will comprehend at their own level of understanding. A lot of reading schemes assume a certain ration of equivalence between comprehension and decoding, which is where you can get a mismatch. This is when you need a good teacher to think beyond a reading scheme in the selection of reading material.

[daftdame]

^should be 'I think' 1st sentence.

[daftdame]

^ration not ration

[daftdame]

Sorry ratio (auto correct)

[mrz]

a. there other strategies that can be employed to read an unfamiliar word
such as?

and b. an ability to 'read' nonsense words doesn't tell us anything meaningful,

actually it tells us a great deal about how well equipped a child is to tackle unknown words that aren't in their spoken vocabulary ...
Last year's check told me that there were children in the Y1 class who weren't secure when real words contained split vowel spellings and that some didn't have a strategy for tackling polysyllabic words, so I could tell their teacher that was where they needed support.

[mrz]

As I said before Biscuitsneeded if you can't read the words then you can't start to understand. You seem to have a very strange idea that children who are taught phonics aren't taught comprehension ... strangely enough all my current Y1 class have a comprehension age that is slightly higher than their reading age which is equal to or higher than their chronological age.

[Biscuitsneeded]

This is where we differ, mrz. If they 'tackle unknown words that aren't in their spoken vocabulary' and happen to pronounce them right because of their phonics knowledge, you call that reading. I don't, because they still don't know what that word means, so they are none the wiser. For me, reading is about being able to match the letters on the page with the knowledge and concepts in your head. When I was at school we had a test each year to ascertain our reading age. I remember that every year from age 6 to age 11 the only word I couldn't 'read' was metamorphosis. In the end I adopted a phonics approach (even though phonics didn't exist in my primary school!) and pronounced the word correctly so they gave me the point. But I left that school still not knowing what metamorphosis meant. It was only when I did biology, and then read Kafka, that it made sense to me. Being able to sound out a word in isolation from any narrative is not of much significance to me, I'm afraid.

[mrz]

How do words enter your vocabulary Biscuitsneeded? You hear them, you discover the meaning ...
If you left school not knowing what metamorphosis meant a it tells me you didn't study biology to any depth and b you didn't know how to use a dictionary

[daftdame]

Biscuits If I adopted your philosophy there would be a lot of books I would never attempt to read! I would not have been able to study anything in Middle English or read New Scientist.

Now comprehension can be helped by context, in my opinion. In a sentence you would probably know that metamorphosis was a process of complete change, ie 'The caterpillar after undergoing metamorphosis became a Red Admiral butterfly.'

[mrz]

last week one of my 5 year olds decoded the word loitering ... he asked "what does that mean?" ...new word for his vocabulary which he actually used later in the week in his writing.

[mrz]

I think context helps with comprehension and to know which pronunciation to use when a word is a homograph

[Biscuitsneeded]

Can you be 'taught' comprehension? Isn't it what happens when you are actually reading? You can be taught techniques for answering comprehension questions, certainly, but surely the act of comprehending is to do with development? Of course I'm not implying that children who use phonics don't comprehend what they are reading - hopefully the two go hand in hand - but you're misreading me! Of course 'if you can't read the words you can't start to understand' - I don't dispute that - but using phonics is not the only way to read! I have no beef with phonics as a system; I just think this is test is spurious and the motives behind its implementation disingenuous. Mr Gove wants to prove that under his direction schools driven up standards in literacy; he has seized upon phonics as a way of measuring that even though he doesn't have any primary teaching expertise himself, and our children are being put through the test for political ends. But if as a teacher you can use the test to identify some children who need practice in a specific area, then that's all well and good I suppose. I just personally won't be setting much store by it!