Is it important to be in the top ability groups?

[wigglywoowoo]

Is it important to be in the to be in the top ability groups at school at school? While she is doing well I think this is mainly due to her being one of the oldest in the year.

The group she is in seems to be a little too important to her and I have chatted to her about the groups and how children in them change but she 100% certain that won't be her. If it happens I know that I will have a very unhappy little girl, mainly due to friendship groups.

They are grouped in the class for literacy and numbers and streamed across years 1 and 2 for phonics.

Do the groups change substantially over the years?

In our primary, some groups were fairly fluid - they tended to have 5 tables in each class -
the 2 "top" ones - according to the kids - the teachers always say, "no such thing" - moved around the kids every month or so - to stop the "I NEED to be with so-and-so" or "I am only ever going to be on THE top table" thing happening.... the middle 2 had kids moving in and out fairly regularly, but the other group was for kids who needed help with most things and was fairly static.

Ours also had a 2 class intake per year, and every other year they mixed up the kids between actual classes too - gets the kids used to and ready for change.

We have 2 good secondary schools and a number of grammer schools locally and the kids always go their separate ways anyhow after Y6 (you don't choose your child's next school based on where their friends are going) - this all prepares them for that....

It depends on the school but static grouping is very poor practice

I think it's important for her to be in the group which caters for her needs - school is a long journey and her position now doesn't guarantee her performance later.

Is she very worried about moving groups?

Her needs can be catered for in any grouping

She is worried about her not being with her friends primarily but she is also quite proud about being in the top groups! While there has been some movement, 2-3 children moving half termly, neither my dd or her friends have changed groups since reception. This is probably where her idea that she won't change groups is coming from. I was really surprised that she was even aware of the groupings, when she first mentioned it in reception.

The reason this has arisen is because DD was recently sat with the middle group. DD was insistent that it was because there was no space on the top table and she has been back with them since then. But it is this conversation that has created a few niggles in my mind about her attitude to where she is the class.

I think that they would cater for her in whichever group she was in as they do, from DD's statements, differentiate well. She is quite bright and we don't do any academic work outside school with the exception of homework and reading.

The school only has 1 class per year, would this mean there would be less movement in the groups?

"The school only has 1 class per year, would this mean there would be less movement in the groups?"

no it wouldn't make any difference

Hi wiglywoowoo

You raise a number of points.

Group snobbery - it is amazing how quickly children pick up on which group is 'top' or 'bottom'. There's a lot of pride in being selected as one of the best and the brightest - but cleverer teachers actually make the group names quite vague and often clarify to the children that there is very little difference between the work they are all doing. One thing that is absolutely essential to make clear is that being in middle or bottom group only applies to that class that year - and bottom group for a particularly bright year may be top group at another school.

Fear of Moving Down - my DD2 has been a virtual ping pong ball - she's been moved down groups nearly every year and she has found it hugely upsetting. However, I have a steadfast belief that it doesn't really matter and will all come good in the end and this does seem to finally be sinking in for DD2 (now Y3). I've also stressed that if she doesn't like being on the lower table - then the solution is simple - just work harder/ pay attention/ answer when called upon.

What I will say is that just because you aren't doing more at home doesn't mean that other children aren't. Now this isn't always a pushy Tiger Mum - cramming away junior with multiplication facts or KUMON. Sometimes children just really get into things - one girl in DD1's class adores writing and wants to be a journalist when she grows up. She has notebook after notebook full of amazing stories with wonderful little illustrations and has been doing this throughout Y4/ Y5. She's quite a talent really (she's kindly shown me some of her work before school) and I think it little surprise that all that extra work has resulted in her progressing up through the tables to top writing (literacy) group.

Hard work is its own reward - this is deeply unfashionable - but even given our school's faults it is very clear that the children that keep plugging away at it, do more than is required for homework and all sorts of extra reading, etc... at home are the ones that over time seem to be performing best. Ye olde protestant work ethic isn't really openly discussed or indeed encouraged these days - but it is an important lesson to teach your child. Too often children just presume that you can just get good at something - it just happens. It really is crucial they learn that more often than not there is a lot of hard work behind being a great footballer, tennis player, actor, dancer, singer, etc.... I also find that children who get used to finding all their work easy - really struggle the first time they come up against something challenging or even downright impossible.

My advice is start to prepare your DD for the possibility of working in other groups - because odds are she won't remain in top group all the way through primary school in all subjects. It can be disheartening to be moved down a group - but it also can be an opportunity. Sometimes working with different children, slightly easier material, more teacher support, etc... can be the help needed to get you over whatever hurdle there is slowing your progress. Use the disappointment positively - (i.e. Well if you don't want to be in middle group, then you'll just have to really put the effort in to be moved right back up). I can assure you that being moved back up after a period of being down in a lower group has been a huge boost in confidence for DD2.

HTH

I think it depends on the school. I was told dd was in the second top of 4 groups (streamed across the year, 4 forms) for maths and that she was finding the work easy and would be getting more challenging homework at parents evening. I asked if she would then be moved up next academic year to the top group (y4) and the teacher looked at me like I had 3 heads and told me she is group b, she will be group b til she leaves at the end of year 6. I spoke to deputy head and she didn't see why I didn't think that was fair to any of the children.

Caffeinated that is terrible. Children learn at different rates and can have real leaps in what they can do. I'd hate to think that my DS, who is starting school in August as one of the youngest (and probably I suspect nowhere near top group for anything), wouldn't have an opportunity to move up through groups as he progresses.

I sympathise with the OP though. My DD is in top group for everything (and she knows it even with names being insects, colours, shapes). When she was struggling a bit with reading we did raise the possibility of her that she might be moved to a lower group and strangely enough she put a lot more effort in.

Not stealth boasting but I was the same as a child and I suspect it made me a bit obnoxious and superior (but that all changed when I entered the real world), so I'll definitely try to ensure that doesn't happen with DD.

Birdy I have an August baby starting school in September too and that is what made me all the more furious.

Sorry for the slow response.

That is appalling caffeinated Did they even attempt to try and justify why? I do wonder if children get stuck in these groups and are then limited by the teaching they receive and from your example it would seem possibly so.

PastSellByDate We do always try to praise effort as opposed to achievement not always easy when she doesn't seem to take much care with her homework. (in my opinion, not the teacher's)

Thanks mrz I guess a lot of what occurs is very cohort dependant?

My Y1 dd spends part of a day as a 'blueberry', parts as a 'tiger', has two different talking partners, and transforms into a 'parsnip' most afternoons. Groupings and partners seem to be changing frequently in her class - no idea if this is usual practice, but she doesn't seem interested in who is 'top'.

That sounds very similar to how we work christinarossetti except we don't have any silly names. Children may be working with 2 or 3 different sets of people in a single lesson and are grouped according to the task not ability. They may start the lesson in a group of 6, move to work with someone as a pair, move to work in a larger group or back to a different group of 6. Children move around the class to where the teacher places them with no set place in the room no hierarchy

Well, if you call the tables top table and bottom table there's not much wonder that children prefer one to another.

My DS1 is in Yr 1 and has changed groups a few times since starting reception, so there is movement if required in our school.

Despite the groups been named after colours, they do seem very aware of who is in the 'top' group though - sad really but hard to avoid I guess, esp as they get older.

One of his little friends is a summer baby and is struggling a bit academically. He tells his Mum that he's not as clever as the other kids, that he's thick etc, which is such a shame at not quite 6.

When I taught infants I grouped them according to where they were on the reading scheme and the tables were named after colours. There was a lot of fluidity within that because I'd maybe have 3 children from blue group and 3 from red group to introduce a new concept in number as they were the ones ready for that.

I'd also mix the groups up for art and other things so I don't think they had an opinion as to what was the "top table".

There was quite a lot of movement within the groups and some children were shifted around for social reasons. I also tried to share the more disruptive children around so that no child was ever "stuck" with an annoying one for longer than a couple of weeks.

Jojay, can't the parents of the 6yo teach him some stuff themselves, (I mean reading, writing and rithmatic) Surely how much you can do and what you know as an infant is a function of what you've been told and what you've practiced (not necessarily by or with a teacher) not when you were born.

I admit if the boy is physically smaller than the others then in sport that's probably something the parents can't do much about.

L&S - the little boy has a very supportive family who spend a lot of time reading etc with him. His sister was the same, just a late developer, and reading seemed to 'click' midway through year 2. His parents both have successful careers etc so I've no doubt he'll get there in the end, but it's a shame that already he's comparing himself negatively to other children.

It's a well recognised fact that summer babies can be disadvantaged at school isn't it?

Yes, it's well known alright, but can it be overcome? Infant boys do seem statistically to perform less well than infant girls. On top of that a boy might be almost a whole year younger than a girl in his class. So there are good reasons why the girl might be performing better than this boy. However, unless everybody in the class had supportive parents, early help with the three rs, even before Reception would help and as likely as not the boy would be somewhere in the middle of the ability range and not at the bottom of it. The day the child is born and the mum looks between his legs his parents get forewarning of what they're up against. If I'd had a summer boy I'd have picked up some magnetic letters on my way home from the maternity unit.

Have 2 summer boys. One being the youngest in the year and at grammar school, having sat 2 gcse's last year (2years early). The other finding school tricky. I'm a very supportive parent with very different children.
I'm hoping he will develop and grow in confidence once in year 7 (sept) as he has been in a very competitive class for 7 years. Not easy .

If I had ability tables, my top ability group would include 2 summer born boys (one with 31st Aug birthday) and 3 summer born girls.
Historically autumn born children spent 1 or 2 terms longer in reception class than their summer born classmates I wonder if the supposed disadvantage will be less noticeable now more children have the same time in school.

My two summer borns were among the most able at primary school despite having a mother who left all teaching to the school

Wigglywoo the justification was that if they moved a child up and they would have to move another down a group to keep numbers even and that wouldn't be fair on the child who had earned their place in the top set from the get go. Personally I think it's all about sats results and showing 2 levels of progress (or exceeding) over ks2. The top set all sit level 6 paper in year 6. Dd's group would all be expected to get level 5 based on level 3 ks1 sats, bottom 2 groups would be targeted for level 4's despite the fact there are many capable of more but not given the opportunity. I am hoping when levels are scrapped it will change. But it is an academy so who knows?