Is it important to be in the top ability groups?

[wigglywoowoo]

Is it important to be in the to be in the top ability groups at school at school? While she is doing well I think this is mainly due to her being one of the oldest in the year.

The group she is in seems to be a little too important to her and I have chatted to her about the groups and how children in them change but she 100% certain that won't be her. If it happens I know that I will have a very unhappy little girl, mainly due to friendship groups.

They are grouped in the class for literacy and numbers and streamed across years 1 and 2 for phonics.

Do the groups change substantially over the years?

All of my daughter's Reception class had to recognise their names on day one because they needed to identify themselves in the register. I don't recall it being a problem.

^^ i know a few who can / could read....it's not that unusal in my world. admittedly very mc

I 'd love to hear other teachers experience.

Wow, mrz. That really puts your school's amazing results into context. Where I am it's a mix of leafy and deprived, so a completely different area.

On DD's first day in reception they were all expected to go over to the white board, find their name and drag it to the other side of the board to say they were "present" pretty much all of the reception kids (that I could see - parents were allowed in as it was the first day) could do it with no assistance.

However most of the children in reception attended the nursery attached to the school and they are taught to recognise their name and basic phonics sounds (jolly phonics "Ants on the arm" ditty for A etc).

I think our nursery (which isn't attached to a school) shuns formal literacy work because it doesn't have qualified primary teachers. But from what I've seen so far of my 2yo this won't be a problem. She's picking things up pretty quickly.

DD has been very lucky and had the same teacher for 2 years (nursery and reception) who is truly fab and its going to be hard to say goodbye to her

In answer the OP question

"Is-it-important-to-be-in-the-top-ability-groups?"

Is it important to you or important to your child?

Surely the most important thing is that a child is given work and stretched to work at an appriopiate level. If a child is out of their depth and can't cope the work then they will be unhappy. Similarly if the child find the work too easy then they will be bored.

A big mistake that many parents do is praise their children for sucess rather than hard work. Sometimes children who constantly praised for sucess underachieve: they give up as soon as something is difficult. A child whose self esteem is linked to academic sucess will be less resilent in the face of failure.

If a child is praised for working hard will do better long term.

Simpson: Same thing with my son's reception class. They were expected to move their names on the first day.

My dd's teacher recently told me she was the bottom of the top table for Maths. Thought it was hilarious pigeon holing to share with a parent.

I don't think it is important for me ReallyTired beyond wanting my daughter to be happy. It would be easy for me to get her to do more work than reading at home to ensure that she stays there but I don't really it is necessary as i think a drop to the next group would be a good motivator to work harder. I posted because I wanted to understand the benefits of being in the top group.

I can see that my daughter has a lot invested in being in the top group and this is why I have discussed with her that the people in the groups change and that she may one day, go down. Everything I've read on here says that the children at the top at the start tail off and if this is so then she will not remain where she is without her working harder.

On the subtopic

DD attended 2 nurseries located in areas at the opposite ends of the scale for deprivation. When leaving they had very different expectations of what she should know and be acheiving at 4.

I think the only benefit is in how your daughter perceives herself

Children at the top can continue to progress but often there are those children (who made a slow start) who suddenly catch up and in some cases overtake ... rarely is progress linear.

Agree with mrz, DS is in yr3 and been in the top set/group since yr1 with pretty much the same handful of kids, but almost out of nowhere another 4or 5 children have reached the same level which has resulted in quite a few children being put down to the second group for the first time.

Quite pleased DS seems oblivious to groups, long may it stay that way .

slightly offtopic|: MRZ -- when you say many children arrive unable to use "spoken language", do you mean they can't speak ENGLISH? Or they are unable to use ANY spoken language? ie are they children from homes where other languages are spoken or are they children from homes where no one speaks with them at all?!?! I'm really startled by your statistics (but don't doubt them). All of my nieces and nephews and all of my chidlren's friends could recognise their own names (if not write them) before they were 4. And ....many of said children are bilingual, at a minimum, if not trilingual. I assume they can recognise their names and read simple words/books by that age because they come from families where books and writing are considered to be important and adults speak in full sentences, etc... How lucky your students are to encounter you and your colleagues and can thus start to catch up on their language skills!!

No I mean they don't use spoken language. These are English children English is the only language spoken in the home. They point and make noises to express needs. Some don't even recognise their spoken name.

How does a parent call a child if the child doesn't recognise its name? Do any of them have hearing problems?

oi! you is the politest version

I think it does matter if a child is in the top groups for maths and literacy, when they leave primary.

If they enter a run-of-the-mill secondary, as many have no choice but to, in a mid or lower ability group, the exam structure and timetabling mean that scope for changing groups is limited, and in some subjects - GCSE maths for example students are capped for the grade they achieve by the paper they sit.

I taught for ten years secondary students who were placed in second to bottom set groups, with the best will in the world, outstanding facilities, enthusiatic teaching, concerned parents, effective leadership - still students rarely managed to get transferred to mid set groups.

Surely all schools should be challenging their children to do their best. Some school have very few SEN children where as others have lots of children with learning difficulties.

Children do better if they are focussing on their learning rather than what group they are in. Children get upset about being moved down a table if their parents are upset.

I was totally at a yr2 child who did not know their own surname (let alone how to spell it) a few weeks ago...

Children do better if they are focussing on their learning rather than what group they are in I couldn't agree with you more and have said this to my DD but I'm not there in the classroom and the teacher says she is working hard.

Children get upset about being moved down a table if their parents are upset There are many things that could upset a child about being moved down, that don't involve the parents. My DD would be distressed if she was separated from her friendship group. I honestly don't believe that I would be upset as long as I believed she was trying her best

I never wanted to be in the top group at school. I was only aware of these groupings in secondary school and couldn't understand why anyone would want harder work! Yes, I was lazy mare. I want my DD to try her best but I don't think working hard correlates to being in the top group!

Yes they do change groups over the years and all the book worms (like my son) end up on the top table for english.

My two have moved up and down throughout primary and have benefited from each move. A downward move in Yr3 allowed my DD1 to get her confidence back and allow her to make mistakes as well as enjoy her writing. She ended up moving back up in YR4 when she was happy and confident enough to do so. The same thing happened to DD2 in maths. Flexibility is key, and it's sad to hear tales of sets being set in stone in secondary school.

"There are many things that could upset a child about being moved down, that don't involve the parents. My DD would be distressed if she was separated from her friendship group. I honestly don't believe that I would be upset as long as I believed she was trying her best"

In infants children make friends with the new children on the table very quickly. Anyway they can always play with friends on different tables at play time.

I remember my son was distraught at being moved up a table in English as he had to sit with the girls. However he got used to sitting with the particular girls and found that they weren't so bad afterall.

My Year 1 class are grouped by ability for maths and literacy into 5 groups. They have animal names for literacy and shape names for maths. The 2 top groups are pretty much the same, 1 middle group and 2 bottom groups. They are fluid though, and I review them every half term, including where the actual table is, so they don't get into the mindset of "clever table sits over here".

Some years, they seem very aware of who is on the "clever" table and who isn't, and some years they don't seem to have a clue. Generally though, the less able children don't seem to work it out. Or not in the infant years anyway.

Personal anec-data: When I was 7 and in Year 2, there were 5 tables. I remember being thrilled to move from table 3 to table 2, and even more pleased to go to table 1 soon after! I knew it was the "clever" table and worked hard to get there.