Is it important to be in the top ability groups?

[wigglywoowoo]

Is it important to be in the to be in the top ability groups at school at school? While she is doing well I think this is mainly due to her being one of the oldest in the year.

The group she is in seems to be a little too important to her and I have chatted to her about the groups and how children in them change but she 100% certain that won't be her. If it happens I know that I will have a very unhappy little girl, mainly due to friendship groups.

They are grouped in the class for literacy and numbers and streamed across years 1 and 2 for phonics.

Do the groups change substantially over the years?

Mrz... that will depend on the individual child. Some gifted children will come to school able to read and some with more average abilities may come to school able to read due to "hothousing." Some gifted children will come to school not able to read because they have not been provided the opportunity. The gifted children in both camps should move on quickly in school. Average ability children that have been hot housed before school will probably not maintain their advantage. There may also be some gifted children who go on to underachieve at school because they are not given adequate challenge in the early years and become turned off.
The impact of early reading/writing therefore depends on the individual child and their innate abilities and their response to the school environment. Some children that start school able to read will stay ahead and others will be caught up by bright children offered less opportunities before school.

Abby I can count on one hand the number of children who have arrived in reception able to read in the last 20 years ...

Pastsellbydate, round of applause for this:

Hard work is its own reward - this is deeply unfashionable - but even given our school's faults it is very clear that the children that keep plugging away at it, do more than is required for homework and all sorts of extra reading, etc... at home are the ones that over time seem to be performing best. Ye olde protestant work ethic isn't really openly discussed or indeed encouraged these days - but it is an important lesson to teach your child

You've hit the nail on the head here I think. Extra work or not leaving it to the teachers is often seriously frowned upon (at least in the UK). To try and go beyond your set academic limit is 'bad' to know your place better (and much healthier) and to be innately bright to deserve super development. Perhaps...Not sure where I stand really.

Poppy55- DB1 is end August birthday and youngest in the year but probably not so emotionally mature at school compared to class and performed at average/ just above levels- arguably may have done better waiting a year but is now very successful as an adult in his profession. DB2 is October birthday but was also the youngest in his school year as a result of starting school a year early just before his 4th birthday. He was very emotionally and socially mature for his age, never had a problem being the youngest and performed at a high academic level throughout his school career.
Children mature rates.
Some children might be positively disadvantaged by being the oldest in the year and having to wait to move on to formal education until they are almost 5 effectively being held back. Some children will be disadvantaged by being pushed into a formal education before they were ready at just 4 or even 5 years old.
Education is designed to suit the average, a good school is able to support the exceptions at either end and manage each child as an individual.

Mrz... Is it really that unusual to be able to read before school.... My guess would have been 1-2 children per average class. I could read before I went to school so was not surprised at all when DS's started being interested and reading early on. I was absolutely amazed though when I was told by DS1's very large nursery with 90 places that they had never come across a child who could read before and essentially didn't know what to do with him.

I've had 3 in 20 years Abby. My son's teacher said he was the first in 30 years of teaching ...

Children are definitely coming into school with less skills than they did just 10 years ago

DD started nursery able to read at a basic level (self taught by her not me!) but now she is in reception and is very able in reading (G&T according to the HT) and to some extent writing but IMO what is more important is that she has a love of doing it, rather than just being able to do it iyswim.

I volunteer in another school not my DC school (in reception) and the teacher there says she has never had a child reading before they start.

I find that very sad Mrz but also not terribly surprised given what I see in my professional life.

Maybe you need to define being able to read Mrz. Do you mean fluently when others mean a hundred words or so?

My dd friend could also read so to me it's not that unusual. I'm shocked you have seen so few.

I feel guilty because i feel my summer born is disadvantaged by being in a class with lots of older children. Even though i know he's very bright. (I don't mean beacause he can read, it's due to how he learns. You just show him once and he's got it, kind of learning.) he will loose this advantage a bit iyswim.
He's a baby still.
Not sure i'm explaining it veryvwell.

There's a reason they adjust the 11 plus. Lots of studies show the advantage still plays at GCSE.

I mean recognising their own name Poppy

I was taught to read before I started school (late August birthday, too) and my mum was given a bollocking for it by the teacher at my first parents evening. The teacher obviously didn't know what to do with me.

My mum was fuming - one of my earliest memories was the aftermath...

Gosh I've made that sound like there were negative consequences for me. There weren't, I just clearly remember my mum coming back and ranting to my dad about how very dare she, etc. I was in bed so I suspect she thought I was asleep.

No...surely not.

I'm lost for words.

I've though about it and i'm feeling guilty at giving my daughter the best possible advantage and my son the biggest disadvantage.

Totally untrue unless you make it a disadvantage by negative beliefs.

mrz - are you saying that only 3 children in 20 years have been able to read their own name when they started school? Or have I misunderstood?

No Alibabaandthe40nappies most of our children would be unable to pick out their own name. They would recognise MacDonalds and Asda, Tesco but don't know any letters. So in reply to Poppy's question regarding my expectations I don't expect them to be able to pick up a book and read it fluently nor do I expect them to read 100 words ... I'm happy if they can recognise their own name and perhaps some sounds so they can decode very simple text

Mrz but 10 years ago 2+ intakes were the norm so the average age of the child was older on starting

Not here they weren't xylem8 we have had single entry in September for 20 years

I'm shocked at that statistic, mrz - my DDs are bright but certainly not geniuses and they could both read their names and read and write simple cvc words before they started reception. They're both winter born.

We certainly didn't 'hothouse' the either, just followed where they led and read to them every night (I still do even now they're 10 and 12, it's just a lovely way to end the day and get them ready for sleep).

Must depend on the area surely?

pointythings many of our children arrive unable to use spoken language

At first I didn't believe it when mrz said she had met 4yos who couldn't talk. But I've been reading around and apparently it's not all that uncommon. Makes you wonder why they don't start Reception at 3 to get the children institutionalised even younger! (Perhaps they will.) Was it the mayor of Middlesborough who said police officers should hang around in maternity units because he and his former colleagues can spot a future delinquent, lawbreaker and troublemaker simply from his surname.

I am genuinely astonished at that, but I fully accept that I have always lived in areas with high employment, good education and the corresponding literacy levels.

I'm really astonished that you've only had three who could recognise their own names in twenty years of teaching, mrz. I am guessing that you work in a very disadvantaged area with children who have had unusually difficult lives?

I remember DD's teacher telling us at the new parent meeting in Reception that she would be very surprised to meet a child who could read at that age and nobody should worry etc and recognising their name was certainly considered to be very good at that age but it wasn't presented on a 'three in hundreds of children' level of good! DD is bright but I wouldn't say she could read at the start of Reception. However, she could recognise her name and mine and her dad's name and a few other words that were important to her and was just about starting to blend. She certainly knew all her single letter sounds as did quite a few children from her preschool. She is old for her year and interested in reading generally so I considered that good but not exceptional for her age. Perhaps I have been selling her short!