Child told she was "not allowed" to go to the toilet.

[Offred]

Because of SATs, when they were doing IT, she wasn't doing SATs, she is 6. They didn't want the SATs to be disturbed by traipsing children.

DD took it literally and wee'd herself. The class laughed at her. They did not call me, put her in her PE kit with no tights/socks even though we cycle and they know this and it poured with rain/hail today. Then the TA hassled me about the importance of returning the knickers to reception tomorrow morning. I gave them short shrift as my focus was more DD's feelings, called for the teacher. The teacher said DD should have known she could ask.

That is all they plan to do about it.

What do I do?

Dd is fine but I think she should be more upset and being resigned to such a lack of empathy is a bad sign.

I am quite upset.

Yup, I reckon knowing that if you don't go to the loo when you need to you wee yourself takes a degree in physics.

I am sorry your little girl had an accident and got cold on the way home.

Take heart from the fact that it is not rare for 6yo in Y1 to have accidents on occasions at school.

Sadly schools do not have a ready supply of spare clothes, especially in larger sizes. They rely on donations from parents. Often these spare clothes are not returned either. This is why schools remind parents to return them asap and why they often resort to PE kits.

The getting cold thing - well, tbh, this is a bit of a mix of both imo. School obviously thought she'd be fine. You didn't take waterproofs either despite knowing it was hailing. Whilst it would be ideal if you'd been told I am sure your DD will be ok. If it wasn't so wet to warrant waterproofs over tights then I am sure cold legs, whilst not pleasant, will be forgotten quickly.

We do often ask children to try not to go to the toilet in lesson time, especially during the carpet time, when the beginning/end of lessons occur. But we also do encourage not leaving the class unless an emergency at other times too. I think many parents don't really realise how disrupting it can be when a series of children decide they need to visit the toilet, one after the other, when a lesson is taking place. It disturbs the other children's learning, as well as the child involved. It is also a well known distraction technique too.

We do make sure children know they can go in emergencies - this is not reiterated every single lesson I admit, but it is the general rule. It would appear that your DD was not aware that she would be able to go in an emergency. That is bad planning/instructions by the person giving the message out, I agree. Was this an unusual situation and not something that normally happens?

I am sorry to hear that your DD is suffering at school and being bullied. I suspect this fact is probably making this incident seem far worse to you than it was for your DD at the time. That is understandable.

Have you spoken to your DD to reiterate that she MUST always ask if she is desperate, even if the general rule is that they should not go? If not, I would do this now. And then tbh I'd leave it now. You say your DD is not bothered by it any longer. I'd follow her lead in this. If she was still upset then maybe I'd follow it further.

Mrz, but IME there is a significant minority of children who are sufficiently 'bound by rules' that being told that they can't go to the loo means exactly that - they can't, even if they are desperate.

I am the parent of one such child and have taught others. Why should it be obvious to a child, as it may be to an adult, that SOME school rules are meant to be obeyed, and SOME can be broken 'if you are desperate'? Many children's minds just don't work like that IME.

As a teacher aren't you aware of the children in your class teacherwith2kids and isn't your child's teacher aware that your child needs rules explained?

I'm very impressed that given you have never had any professional experience you are consider yourself to have vast amounts learnandsay

What's the point of having a rule which isn't what it says?

You can't go to the loo means you can.

Yes, of course - but I don't make blanket rules about going to the toilet as you have said you do, BECAUSE I know that those children exist. It seems strange (to me) to make a blanket rule and then have to go around thinking about which children I have to change the rule for. I just do it slightly differently - same outcome, but without the same upfront statement 'this is the rule'.

You don't need experience of teaching to know that is you don't go to the loo when you need to you wet yourself. Nor do you need it to know not to tell children stupid things like: you can't go to the loo.

Because if we say - yes, go to the toilet when you want - well, it is a recipe for a distrupted lesson, in general experience anyway.
Instead - you set the expectation that you go to the toilet in the break times and lunch time and you avoid going in class time. However - everyone might have an emergency - and obviously the teacher deals with this as and when it arises. Some children you just know from experience if it is an emergency or a distraction for example.

This is even more of an issue in my classroom as we are in a cabin away from the main building. Children have to go in pairs to the toilet as it means crossing the playground unsupervised. So - every time one child wants to go - they have to disturb another child's learning too.

Our children know the rules and the exceptions - it is pointed out to them at times, and especially at the start of each year.

In this case it seems it was the technician, not a teacher, who set the rule and from what we seem to be being told although there are no quotes, he seems to have said: you can't go to the loo, or words to that effect.

That is a recipe for a disaster.

Exactly! I have positive approaches about when children MUST go to the toilet, and I have arrangements that prevent timewasting in the toilets or going with another child to cause trouble. I also have general things about class culture and approach that deal with politeness and consideration to the teacher and other learners - covering all kinds of potential disruption from talking and nudging all the way through to walking around the classroom or out of it to the toilet.

What I don't do is say 'you are not allowed to go to the toilet', as then I have to 'unsay' it for a group of children and frankly I find it a lot easier never to have to make the rule in the first place, as a rule that has to be borken on a regular basis just seems silly to me in an environment where we want rules to be kept....

You make it sound like the 11th commandment "Thou shall not pee during school hours" (which of course only applies to teachers )

I'm sorry your little girl had an accident. My own DD1 is the same age and I would share your pain on her behalf if I were in your shoes. I have a very - very!! - clear memory of my knicker elastic breaking at about age 8 and my pants ending up round my ankles as I ran across the playground! Not my fondest memory!

However I am really not sure what you expect the school to do beyond what they have done and I think your emotions are making your over react. Your DD was not refused permission to go to the toilet - she did not ask to go and had an accident. Perhaps she didn't realise how much she needed. It is not uncommon at this age and children in Year 1 are certainly asked often enough to got at the appropriate times. I wouldn't expect the school to call me if a similar thing happened as frankly I think 'least said, soonest mended' and for them to call you would make your DD think it was a big deal when it isn't. My own DD was being quite scathing recently over a class mate who wet himself and who she thought 'should have known he needed to go' so I used it as a moment to teach her a little empathy! If your DD isn't bothered, try not to project your own sense of unhappiness that this thing happened to her, but just let her know it is perfectly normal at this age. If she is upset by the reaction of others - and as my own DD has shown, empathy and kindness are not always the first reaction of a 6 year old - then speak to the teacher and ask if she can find a way to let everyone know it is unkind to laugh at other people for things they cannot help.

And yes, it meant she was not perhaps as warmly dressed as she could have been going home, but really I do not think you can blame the school because if you had waterproof trousers and coat for her it really wouldn't have mattered much what she was wearing underneath for the cycle home.

I think you are understandably upset your DD had an accident and mortified for her that others laughed. That is perfectly normal. But I think expecting more from the school than they did is unreasonable in the circumstances. If they had refused her permission to go, then I would agree you need more from them than you got. But what exactly do you think they need to do now. Apologise - for what? Why is it wrong of them to remind you to bring the clothes back that they leant her? No tights or socks - ok, but schools do not have an unlimited supply of spare clothes, you haven't left any changes for her and were quite happy for her to cycle despite the weather, without bringing in extra, warm clothes or watherproofs yourself for the journey home. The schools job is to educate your child, not kit her out or plan her journey home. She wet her pants, not her school jumper, coat etc. So at the most they took off her pants, trousers/skirt and tights/socks and gave her t-shirt (if she was wearing a tunic) shorts and dry shoes. If the weather was so bad I would expect to take wellies, coat etc into school for my child and waterproof trousers if it was hailing/raining. A cold journey home may be unpleasant but - since you choose to cycle - it is hardly the responsibility of the school to sort it out. You could always get a taxi. Sorry, I expect that is all going to be quite annoying for you to read but I don't think the school have done anything wrong from what you have said.

Mrz, for DS it had as much power as if it HAD been given to Moses on tablets of stone. He treated all school rules with the same absolutism!

I don't think I have ever said it is a rule teacherwith ...

Good lord people really could do with actually reading.

Dd was not upset. I am not mortified.

I was upset because of their attitude towards her/it not because she had an accident.

We have no option but to cycle actually you can't just get a taxi at school pick up time they have to be booked in advance especially when you have four children. Plus what would we do with the trike and two bikes? Wow, judgemental!

I was pissed off about the shorts because they are so precious about letting them go outside and so preening about us cycling everyday that it felt like they were punishing dd.

Also re the clothes. Children of dd's age don't have accidents in school at her school. If she had been in her uniform she would not have got cold because she hasn't previously, she did get cold this time. What do you think I should have done been psychic and known they'd changed her into her pe kit? Why couldn't they have called to ask me to bring tights/trousers?

What I expected the school to do is simply say sorry for telling the class they weren't allowed to go and talk to the tech and explain how she could have expressed herself better.

Dd believed they intended her to wee herself rather than ask because she had been told they weren't allowed.

Of course I have now explained that she should ask or simply just go rather than wee herself but this is no good if school do not reinforce which is another thing I expect them to do. Basically not give mixed messages, explain when mixed messages have been given to the giver that it isn't to be done and make sure dd knows she must wee.

Of course I would have returned the pants, I think it is v. Rude to be irritated with me about my inability to guarantee I would be able to do that by first thing the next morning.

"The rules" is exactly what dd said she thought she was following. Probably because the tech told the class they were not allowed to wee.

She is utterly fine today btw. I would have forgotten about it too by now but you lot are still feeling personally affronted.

except it wasn't a rule Offred ...

Was it not? Oh right that's ok then...

I'm glad you have realised

I am a little baffled by the difference between 'children are not normally allowed to go to the toilet' and 'it not being a rule'. As a child, I would have been baffled too - and I am not quite as literally minded as DS, who would definitely have interpreted 'not being allowed to go by the adult in the classroom' as 'the rule is that I am not allowed to go'.

wow I don't think I was being judgemental in suggesting you get a taxi. And fortunately I did learn to read. It was helpful for me in getting qualified up my arse to become a teacher. Heaven forbid however that I have no bloody idea what town you live in and the arrangements of the local cab hires! How unreasonable that it be suggested you - the parent - are responsible for ensuring that your child has clothes suitable for cycling in hail. You are the one who said the weather changed dramatically - tights alone would not have kept her warm and dry anyway; it is not unfair to suggest you should have taken proper waterproofs in for her. No, I don't expect you to be psychic and know they changed her into her pe kit, but I would expect you to take more than a raincoat to school once you saw what the weather was doing. I fully accept it was probably terribly unpleasant for her to go on a bike in the hail in only shorts. It also seems apparent that you will not accept the fault for this lies anywhere than with the school. Whilst they may 'preen' themselves on the fact that you cycle to school - doubtful and more likely commented upon to make your DD feel special - when you have dozens of children to look after it is not unreasonable that your journey home was not at the top of their minds all day.

Nothing you have said about the school saying your DD should have asked to go is 'punishing' your DD. The school didn't tell your DD she couldn't go to the toilet. She has lots of opportunities in the day to go. I am sure that - in all the other weeks and months she has been in the school - she has seen and heard others ask for, and be given, permission, to go to the toilet during class. She has probably asked and been given herself. It is not the schools fault either that your DD thinks the school intended she should wet herself rather than ask to go. And frankly, having taught thousands of children over the years, unless your DD has a particular learning difficulty like ASD which makes her take things very literally, it would not be normal for a 6 year old to think in that way.

Your child wet herself. Whether you want to accept it or not it IS perfectly normal in children of that age. Why would you continue to argue it is not? Your child had a perfectly normal age appropriate childhood occurance. It was no-ones fault. Often children of this age do not even realise they can need to go until it is too late, as they are so caught up in what is going on around them. You seem determined to find fault with the school and. IMO, you are over reacting in every way to what happened.

This morning it was sunny, she therefore didn't take her waterproofs. This afternoon it was hailing. You didn't take her waterproofs because she would have been fine in thick tights which would have quickly become wet and cold. She didn't have her tights on because this morning (SATs are in the morning, so it must have been this morning that the incident happened) she wet herself. Why has she not got tracksuit bottoms in her PE kit?

No matter. That is not what you are upset about. You are upset that she was told off for not asking to go to the toilet. You also mention that once it happened, and some children laughed, she then acted like a zombie and made the children laugh more? Maybe that was why the teacher was a bit short with her? Maybe the teacher saw that she was acting the fool and wondered whether the wetting herself was done more for attention than accidentally (Trust me, I've had it happen, even in Y3).

You tell us you aren't upset about the clothes - that we are simply getting hung upon them. However, you wanted them to phone you specifically to tell you that she needed different clothes. They probably didn't think about it because the weather was warm and sunny when she changed and they probably didn't think about it once the weather changed. You also said you don't always pick her up, so maybe they assumed somebody else might be picking her up and didn't realise she would be cycling.

You obviously have an issue with the school. If this is the case, then you need to have a reasonable discussion first with the the teacher, and if that is not successful then with the head. Do not go in wittering about DD wetting herself - this isn't the issue you have. The issue you have is that you feel the school is not caring about DD's feelings. Of course, they may counter that they are looking after a number of children and cannot always be aware of every change of emotion of your child. I know when I was teaching, I tried to keep my eye on all the children and how they were feeling, but many are very good at hiding their feelings and only letting it out when they get home. I may be a great teacher, but I'm not a mind reader. If a child doesn't tell me there's a problem, I can't deal with it.

Sorry this is long, but hopefully you'll read it and realise how much you are overreacting over this?