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Phonics versus Biff, Chip and Kipper

405 replies

Lukethe3 · 31/01/2013 14:09

I find it slightly irritating that at DS school he is taught phonics but then sent home to read the old ORT stuff which has tricky words at even the easiest level. Is this purely because the school has no money to buy new books or is there actually an advantage to be taught like this?
I have bought some Songbirds books for DS and these seem to make far more sense to me as they include the sounds that DS is learning.

OP posts:
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mrz · 01/02/2013 20:47

It's much easier to fudge over an unknown word
(and don't we all do it on occasions when the word isn't vital for the meaning of the text)

learnandsay · 01/02/2013 20:49

simpson, mrz was just about to explain how the word one should be read. Can we have a group chat a little later?

mrz · 01/02/2013 20:49

learnandsay I would say that although we hear the sound "w" at the beginning there isn't a letter because a very long time ago spellings were different and so we spell the word this way ..

mrz · 01/02/2013 20:50

how rude learnandsay! ...as you like to point out this is a free forum and anyone can contribute.

learnandsay · 01/02/2013 20:51

I can't understand what you're saying. How does the spelling one translate into the sound wun?

You did it with the word two. (Or if you're saying that's just the way we spell it. I can see how that works. It's a sight word.)

learnandsay · 01/02/2013 20:53

Naughty and rude. How true. But you were having so much trouble getting the explanations out I just didn't want you to get distracted. But you've done it now. Well done.

simpson · 01/02/2013 20:53

Sorry, but I will type whatever I want tbh.

If you want a 121 chat then PM mrz (sorry mrz if you dont want a PM from LandS!!)

simpson · 01/02/2013 20:56

I know this is going off track slightly ( and this thread has gone off track anyway, sorry OP Blush).

But DD has to learn to spell could, would, should and because (amongst others - but the other words I know how to help her with). How would you phonetically break them down to help her write them??

simpson · 01/02/2013 20:57

Above message was to mrz btw...(forgot to say that Blush)

mrz · 01/02/2013 21:17

simpson I teach that the spelling is a way to write the sound "oo" as in foot.

because I would teach as two syllables be cause

(spelling for the sound "ee") (sound "k") (spelling for sound "or" (spelling for sound "s")

simpson · 01/02/2013 21:22

Thanks, that is most helpful Smile

mrz · 01/02/2013 21:24

Naughty and rude. How true. But you were having so much trouble getting the explanations out

and there I was thinking it was you having trouble reading what I had written Hmm

teacherwith2kids · 01/02/2013 21:31

It seems to me - though I am not an expert like mrz, as I haven't extensively taught the relevant age group - that the 'read words on sight' / 'sound them out' thing is a cart before horse / horse before cart discussion.

Fluent readers appear to read the vast majority of words on sight (I believe that there is some research that shows that they do actually scan and decode all through the word, but the process is so fast as to be at a practical level indistinguishable from reading on sight).

Children learning to read, and anyone attacking an unknown word, need a way to 'decode' a word. It cannot be read as a 'whole word on sight', because it is as yet unknown.

Phonics is an explicit way of teaching someone that process, and of giving someone the tools they need to attack any word.

So by teaching phonics systematically and well, reading can be taught with the greatest efficiency and effectiveness to the greatest proportion of all children - who will then pass on to the 'apparent reading on sight' stage for the vast majority of words but will still have their tool-box available for any new words.

If a child is taught ONLY by whole word 'look and say' methods, there is no 'tool' to attack a new word UNLESS the child makes the implicit connections between symbol (grapheme) and sound (phoneme) for themselves. That is a much more hit and miss method, as research demonstrates.

By advocating 'look and say' / whole word methods, I suspect that the intent was to put the cart before the horse - to replicate what fluent readers appeared to do, (unwittingly) without supplying any explicit teaching that would allow beginning readers to get there.

L&S, I will say again - if your child is indeed a good reader, then they are on the wrong book band., purely and simply, and the phonics readers vs non phonics readers is a red herring - she is simply being provided with a few words per book to get her teeth into to use her (implicitly worked out by herself, I would hope, as you will not always be there to read a new word for the first time) new decoding skills, where she could be given full books-worth of such vocabulary if she was on the correct book band.

If yellow books, whether decodeable or not, are in any way suitable for her, she is not a good reader. A genuinely very able reader of her age - which is what you want to imply she is - would be reading Roald Dahl-ish books independently. Without saying it too many times, DS went from unable to read, to self-taught mastery represented by long chapter books of the Roald Dahl type in 8-9 months - all I did was read to him when younger, and listen to him read as he progressed, no explicit teaching. Given the length of time that you have been explicitly teaching her to read, I would suggest that your methods may be less than efficient.

morethanpotatoprints · 01/02/2013 21:35

I miss Biff, chip and Kipper FWIW my 2 older dss 21 and 18 read these and dd hasn't.
Ds 21 struggled with reading and writing and so does dd.
I know this is hardly conclusive evidence of them being more successful but my dss enjoyed them.

teacherwith2kids · 01/02/2013 21:38

Morethan,

I think a lot of children enjoy B,C & K not because they are successful at teaching children to read, but because they represented some kind of continuity of reading matter.

Certainly when I have read with some children they say that they prefer to read B,C & K books 'because they know the characters and what the story might be like' - a bit like Rainbow Fairies, I suppose, or Beast Quest, and all those other phenomenally successful endless series of books?

mrz · 01/02/2013 21:41

I'm not an expert teacherwith2kids, and don't profess to be one, but I do have many years experience teaching young children to read and agree with you about good readers and that complete non readers to reading chapter books independently within 2 terms in reception.

simpson · 01/02/2013 21:44

DD was fairly obsessed with Biff et al for a while but luckily now seems to have transferred her obsession onto Topsy and Tim

teacherwith2kids · 01/02/2013 21:45

Ah, but surely on MN, where teaching a sample size of 1 child makes one an expert, and a sample size of zero makes one a super-expert able to contradict all known theory, you are most definitely an Expert with a capital E Thanks

simpson · 01/02/2013 21:48

DD ended nursery on red/yellow level (sounding everything out) and in 7 months has progressed to chapter books (although IMO not ready for Roald Dahl yet but is beyond the basic easy reader first chapter books).

mrz · 01/02/2013 21:48

I confess I've managed to teach more than 1 child to read Wink
thanks Thanks

simpson · 01/02/2013 22:26

Mrz - Grin

At what stage do you say a child can read as apposed to learning to read?

mrz · 01/02/2013 22:35

When they can pick up a book/text and read it independently, understanding what they are reading.

but I do think to be a reader is something slightly different to being able to read.

simpson · 01/02/2013 22:40

What is the difference then?

I mean there are kids in DD's class that could pick up their school book and read it to themselves but I would not say they can "read" iyswim (ORT stage 2)...

plusonemore · 01/02/2013 22:41

for frigs sake, many methods of teaching children to read, the best is to find the ways that bed suit each child. Yes, phonics are crucial and central but there is a place for sight words- uou're crazy to think its helpful to sound out 'because'!!! Seems to me you're inventing your own graphemes too mrz.
And PLEASE don't tell children not to look at the pictures, its not guessing, its a part of making sense of what they are reading, and lets face it- that is the whole point of reading!!!!

Get off your soap boxes and high horses

Shock
plusonemore · 01/02/2013 22:42

*best not bed
(blummin phone)