Infant School pushing to report me to SS for neglect. Can they do that?

[pylonic]

My DD age 5.5 has had a poor lateness record since the beginning of Year 1. No excuses really, I only lived a 9 minute walk from school but we were late almost every day for at least 6 months. I had trouble sleeping but not to the point of Insomnia, just kept oversleeping through the alarm clock most times (dreaded snooze button).

She's also had some absence, genuine though, illness and doc's appointments.

Last year I was advised by letter that unless lateness improved the school would be referring us to a welfare officer.
3 months ago we had to move out of the village to a nearby town but no transfers in new town for DD so she still attends old school. Because I have had to rely on buses, we have been late again quite a few times, or other people that I have relied on to drive her in for me have been late traffic etc or there's been other logistical problems, so presumably the record isn't improving.

Today the head teacher called my Mum in for a word (I'm 44...why they need to call my Mummy I don't know), and the gist was as follows:

My children are being neglected because I have insomnia (I don't, I just needed to put some excuse down in the late book. Quite tame compared to other regularly late people's excuses), so they want to involve social services.

I have been seen in the village shop with my children buying chocolate bars. And that's it. I don't know what they mean by this? :/

My daughter has turned up without a cardigan on at least two occasions in 'extreme weather'. This constitutes neglect. But they are quick to complain if she's wearing a different colour cardigan to school because her two logo tops are in the wash.

She often has a chocolate drink in her lunchbox.

This is a very cliquey village, hence glad to have left it behind, but although the late record is admittedly quite dire, is it generally worthy of involving social services for neglect?

The head teacher and I "don't have a dialogue" she told my Mum, hence why she called her in to talk to instead.

I've only spoken to the head once, when I had to inform them about the children's father's DV past so that they do not let him take DD out of school without my permission.

I bristle under authority having come into my Catholic rebellion quite late in life, but I'm generally non-combative.

So I'm wondering what you think of my request, in that I want toask the head to write down all the concerns she has so I have it in writing, and then invite her to my home in order that she can ascertain for herself it is a proper, clean, comfortable and sustaining environment for the children.

I feel a bit Hmmmmm that she has gone 'running to my Mummy' instead of talking to me, the parent, especially considering this late book has been full of the same old, same old pupils including my sister's son, for the last couple of years, but I feel a bit singled out perhaps wrongly, I don't know, because of the whole single mother on benefits stereotype, DV background, and now they want social services to investigate the children for neglect.

The children's father also wants to play this card against me, so I'm just resigned to SS being involved in their lives anyway it's out of my control.

My DD is otherwise happy, bright, doing fine at school and paints happy pictures all the time.

Can an infant school really go down this route when there isn't actually any clear signs of any kind of neglect going on? It seems unfair to tar my DD with this brush and I'm also concerned how this is going to affect her In Year transfer to a school in our new town.

I think this is just a rant, it all seems to be out of my control. The head has a reputation for being an axe-grinder and their Ofsted isn't great for a village school. The conspiracy theorist in me is saying its all about the grades.

Hs anyone been investigated by SS before for neglect? What should I expect? Will it go against me in the forthcoming Vafcass report which their father wants to initiate too as part of his contact/custody case?

1. The school can report to anyone they please.

1. It is TOTALLY an unacceptable breech of confidentiality to speak to you Mum instead of you the guardian and parent. I would complain very high up the chain about that.

1. I work with SS but in another country. Where I am their late concerns would not consititue a "child protection" concern so it would probably be screened, you'd be called about the concerns and then it would be closed with a talking to.

1. Its a bit ridiculous that you are not tackling this issue head on by just getting your kid to school on time. Making up an excuse like you have "insomnia" opens the door for people to insinuate that you need parenting support because you have a health or mental health struggle - that does you NO favors.

1. I would not invite the school to your house but have a meeting with the principal directly to try to resolve the matter. Its not their place to 'investigate your home'.

Only you know if there is behaviour going on that gives off a poor impression. Is your kids showing up under dressed in poor weather? Is it really reasonable to have your child late for school every day even after being warned? Are you purposely not following the school lunch guidelines....you are probably not neglectful at all but you should very seriously consider how you come off to others again...because you do yourself no favors to do otherwise.

If you kids have had untreated lice for periods of time, that can get an open investigation - I have done poor hygeine/lice investigations. Under our legislation it can be classified as an emotional abuse issue - something that could affect other kids/teachers desire to interact with your child leading to social isolation.

Tbf, I gather that the live lice had been long since dealt with, Molly, but I don't think the OP really considered that leaving the shells would cause the sort of issues you mention.

The head teacher appears to be making a sensible decision to refer to SS. I hope they are able to work with you to help your daughter have a less chaotic life. Hopefully you might develop some insight into your own actions too.

SecondComing. You are very quick to jump in with personal insults. Is there something you would prefer to share with me personally instead of hiding behind the anonymity of online threads, because I can give you my telephone number if you like.

MollyMurphy.

No, the children do not have untreated headline. You are referring to old threads that SecondComing is trying to use as flamethrowers.

'The kid' has been getting to school roughly on time for the past few months. The late issues were addressed and improved on.

This post is about infant schools and their ability to involve SS.

I haven't personally been investigated for neglect but was closely involved recently in supporting a friend who was.

Solely on your main points:
Can the school refer? Yes they can. They don't need to justify their concerns to you it is enough that they are concerned and it is then for SS to assess what response is needed. That might be just a one off visit or might escalate to formal child protection procedures which is what you want to avoid.

Should you speak to the head? Maybe but don't expect to persuade her to withdraw the SS referral. It is for SS to assess if there is any merit to the schools concerns. It will look better if you are co-operating with the school to address the issues. If you go in all guns blazing throwing counter-accusations about confidentiality you will be labelled difficult. I wouldn't go any further than, 'I'm disappointed you didn't discuss this with me first.'

Should they have spoken to your mum? Its not cut and dried IMHO. Of course it would have been better to speak to you directly but I'm not sure its actually illegal to speak to your mum. Child protection is a clear exception to confidentiality rules. They could argue that they were acting to protect DD although they should really leave any info gathering to SS.

Will it play badly with CAFCASS? Yep. Although I can't see that it would outweigh his DV. Ideal if you have some proof of this eg police reports, witnesses.

If they have actually made a referral then the school (and mumsnet) are the least of your problems. You should be ready to justify your actions eg in turning down a nearby school place and refusing FSM to a social worker. These could be viewed as not acting in the child's best interests. If they advise you to eg go to GP for assessment I would strongly recommend you do it whatever you think.

This is a really serious situation where you need to tread very carefully. My friend was referred by the school for similar issues, similar background Hx and it got very serious. She went the route of 'standing up to them' and it was a major mistake. The decks are stacked against you and its very high stakes. Appeasement is the way to go.

I can't see why you can't just get up earlier and catch an earlier bus?! I am on benefits, and have to catch buses to get my two older DS's to school.

This involves me getting up at 6.45am, despite my pain-related insomnia (hard to get to sleep when you are in constant pain from rheumatoid arthritis). It also involves me getting my teenage DD with Autism up and out of the house on time, getting my 10yo and 9yo DS's ready (9yo DS2 also has Autism, and physical difficulties that make it harder for him to actually physically get dressed and get ready), AND get my 23mo toddler with dxd hyperactivity dressed and ready.

What possible reason can there be for not leaving early enough to guarantee that your DC's will get to school on time?!

I leave at 8am to be at school for 9, and it's technically only a 20 minute bus journey. When my bus journey was an hour, I left at 7.30.

I HATE mornings, and am rarely compos me rid before 10.30am. But my DC's are still at school on time unless it has snowed (bus issues but only in snow).

I think it is wrong to say you can't afford the bus fares - I pay those before I do the food shopping! Getting my DC's to school on time is paramount, otherwise it disrupts both their education AND that of their classmates.

Tbh, I can see why the school are wanting to call in SS.

I have a DS that NEVER wears a jumper, not even in below zero temperatures. He wears a coat, non-negotiable, and he also has a jumper that stays on his peg - it means buying one that he will never wear, but it keeps the school happy!

I think the school calling your mum in is wrong, one because it breaches the Data Protection Act, which I would complain about (the only time they are allowed to divulge personal information like that to your mum is if she has a residency order for the DC's!).

I would first make damn sure that I got my DC's to school on time, no excuses - I set three separate alarms this morning! Then I would buy another school jumper, they are less than £10, and keep it on her peg so she has one at school. Then I would kick up a stink in writing about the school discussing my private business with other people in blatant breach of the Data Prptection Act.

Yes, CAFCASS can and WILL use this information in court. If you want to continue to be the resident parent, I suggest you get up and get your DC's to school on time!

The FSM's thing - you can claim them but not use them. The reason the school (especially a small village school) wants you to claim them isn't for the food itself, but for the £500 a year pupil premium that is paid to the school each year for each DC that CLAIMS for FSM's (irrespective of whether they actually eat those meals or takes their own in).

Just claim the damn FSM's. It's the pupil premium the school is after. And they are meant to use it to directly benefit that child - so some of it can be used to go towards school trips. So it WILL benefit your DD if you claim FSM's, even if she still takes in a packed lunch.

So here's your future post - HT calls in SS, you are as combative with them as you are with the school. You argue technicality and the stupidity of their rules as oppose to accept help and change basic behaviour to improve your kid's life. Meanwhile your kids are singled out for being late, not in uniform and 'nits' (don't for one minute think other kids care about live or dead casings if you're the 'nitty kid') - and please do read Ginandadashoflimes post.
Your ex takes all of this and uses it against you - gets either 50/50 residency or possible primary care. Not because your are neglectful (although not sure if lazy and CBA doesn't add up to that to a small degree) but because you can't get over your own issues about authority and being told what do to.
Just stop, seriously just stop fighting and think of this future - is it really worth the risk? Your Ex hit you, do you want him as primary carer? Can you not compromise, play their rules enough to stop this happening. Maybe I'm painting a bleak picture but we've all seen worse on here. Stop fighting the small battles and look at the bigger picture for the sale if your kids

any school can report to SS anything they like. schools are common referral sources to SS. there is no recourse, because by law any adult must report anything they feel constitutes neglect or abuse and its up to SS to determine if those concerns are founded.

If pylonic is still reading: grateful if you could clarify the time lines in OP.

You said DD has been late for school since start of year 1 (ie 4 months ago), but that the lateness has been going on for 9 months (6 months at old address and 3 months since move). Is it a typo, or has the lateness indeed been going on for longer? It's well over half her time in school, so I can see the concern.

I hope you're up, and DD will be on time today.

"We refused the offer of the only school place available. It is in the worst Ofsted rated school and is a good mile away."

What was the Ofsted overall grading & what are the SAT results like at the mile-away school? How bad is "the worst" rating?

pylonic Tue 08-Jan-13 20:32:32

"For the benefit of everyone suggesting otherwise, I take full responsibility for my daughter, I don't feel victimised, agree that I have been lazy and blamed it on past issues with their father, and the point of the thread is to ask how many of you have been investigated by SS for neglect at infant school."

I have. In my case, totally unjustly, as the results of dd's medical condition were interpreted as neglect and attention seeking on my part. And I was screaming inside to tell these people exactly what I thought of them and how they had not right to treat me like that.

But I had to think of dd, both in terms of what would be best for her education at the time and what kind of life skills I would be teaching her by example. And I realised the only way to get us out of there would be by cooperating with SS and EWOs, inviting them into our home, listening courteously to their concerns, explaining exactly what I was doing to address their points and asking for help where I needed it.

8 years down the line, dd's problems still persist. But there isn't a professional who isn't on our side and dd is getting the help she needs to overcome her problems.

It hurt like hell. But I was doing it for dd.

That is how you need to think. If your depression is still a problem- get help, for your dd's sake. If you struggle for money- get free school dinners, for your dd's sake. If the head is hostile- don't aggravate him, for your dd's sake. If there is any way you could solve the transport problems (by accepting a place at the local school and staying on the waiting list)- do it for your dd's sake.

She will learn better in an environment where home and school are not at loggerheads, and her learning will affect the whole of her future.

I think that you are a loving mum and that your refusal to accept FSM and the offer of a place at a less-than-satisfactory local school comes from best intentions.

However, I think that you need to acknowledge that accepting FSM and a place at a rubbish school will not harm your child as much as you yourself - through your actions, choices and decisions - are harming her.

As many others have said, there is no excuse for many of the issues that the school has raised and your first thought should be about how to improve the life chances of your daughter (not whether the HT broke confidentiality rules etc).

You say that lateness runs in your family, and yet you are setting this awful example to your daughter that makes it more likely that she will also grow up with lateness issues and all that that entails (such as what you are going through now).

If the HT spoke to my mother about my parenting I would be mortified - not because she is wrong, or over-zealous, or breaking confidentiality, but because someone who knows what they're talking about has looked at me and feels that I am failing my child.

I hope your DD was on time today, and that you open a dialogue with the school with a view to accepting any help on offer.

Standing ovation for cory

You say that the nearby school has the worst Ofsted rating, as I understand it that means that the school is likely to be getting extra help to improve and more regular inspections. That could certainly be seen as a good thing and not necessarily a reason not to go there. A school that was rated good 3 years ago might be rubbish now but you don't know because Ofsted haven't been.

I wouldn't get hung up on that point. I did read the thread about the nits, I don't know how posters remember it was you as it seems to have been deleted, and tbh you do come over as someone with a bit of a problem in your dealings with people who you disagree with.

Please think of your childrens' futures (and get the FSMs claimed today)

Sorry this is a bit of an aside and a question to others as much as OP, but how is it possible to oversleep when you've got children? I have human alarm clocks that come with no snooze button who wake me up at 6.30 every morning.
Pylonic, what was your dd doing while you were sleeping? If she was sleeping herself, then you need to get her to bed earlier. If she's getting her own breakfast and watching TV then you can see how persistent lateness is a flag for, er, a slightly relaxed form of parenting.
I absolutely see why schools pounce on lateness. It's not so much the missing register etc, but it can be symptomatic of something much wider.

Cory and OP,

We were also flagged to SS when oldest was having serious school problems and behaving bizarrely (since diagnosed with Aspergers). Made me want to take him and run far, far from the system, but we bit our tongues and told them how grateful we were for their concern and asked what they could do to get the referrals to happen faster (bugger all, as it turned out, but hey ho).

Cooperate. Be nice to the head. Apologise. And take the free, local place and the free meals.

Have to admit I was shocked about them going to your mum, and also the chocolate thing but you lost me at the nativity play thing TBH. It is not a surprise that the school have you pegged as oppositional and defiant. I am also really astounded that you haven't claimed a nearer school place or free meals. I would jump on the FSM if we were entitled to it.

I have been referred to SS twice. Once in my first pregnancy when I disclosed the childhood abuse and self harm/depression - the midwife wanted to check my baby wasn't at risk. I'm not sure if it was also because I was young (19) but that's by the by really - as Cory and others have said, it is NOT the time to stand up to authority. I was upset of course, but we just tidied up the flat, made sure we looked presentable (self care is not our strong point) and welcomed the SW into our home with a cuppa and a chat about how excited we were about our little girl, and our plans for bringing her up, and even how we were talking to the bump. And I told the truth - yes, I was at risk of PND, but I promised that I would seek help if it occurred (which I did). A few weeks later we got a report from the SW saying he had no concerns. Job done.

The second time was pretty recent - things have been very very tough with both of us being ill/injured, won't bore you with the details as I've posted far too often already. But I asked to be referred - because you know, SWs are nice people! They care and they WANT to help. We have a family outreach worker (you could have one too since you have a child under 5) and she is coming tomorrow to discuss a common assessment framework for my 3yo, as a way of bringing together all the agencies that we need to help us. We have had a SW round who was trying to work out what they could do.

They are not the enemy, and neither are your DD's teachers. They just want to help your DD. Let them!

It's a cliche, but you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

i have worked with some brilliant welfare officers and they may be able to offer you some very good support.

BTW just wanted to add that although depression has a stigma attached in the general population (which is wrong of course), there is no need to worry about how SWs will see you if you admit to depression. They are quite used to it.

I explained to the various professionals such as SW/FORW/HV about my history - abuse, depression, self harm, and now possible diagnoses of OCD and/or Aspergers, and honestly nobody batted an eye.

I have accepted all help offered and have - largely thanks to MN advice I must say - explored many routes for getting help by phoning various agencies. In fact the SW said how impressed she was that I seemed to already have things underway.

Please get help for your depression.