my child reads and write at top level, but her Phonics group is not!!!

[B4r4joon]

My daughter is a very bright child at Y1...she is reading and writing very well...however when it came to grouping them, she is not been located in the top group in Phonics, although she reads the same level and writes the same as those children on the top group. This is very confusing for her amd me, as I dont understand on what basis this happened. She can be at times shy and she observes her peers very well and learn from them as she is bi-lingual. In the gropu she is in now, the difference between the level she reads and the level of some other children is huge...perhaps 7 colour reading band!!!

This has affecte dmy childs confidence as she thinks she hasnt been good enough, or why she is reading the same book as her reading partner, and he/she is in another group. ALl confusing for me, I am gonna talk to the teacher tomorrow, and I dont know how to say it. i dont want to convey that I dont trust their judgment, but this is gonna hold my child back and crashes her confidence, as the groups are gonna stay the same until the end of teh year! Can I ask the teacher to move my child to the other group? Is Phonics the knowledge that they learn to apply to their writing and reading, so how can she read and write higher than her phonics knowledge? She is already reading sounds that she has not been officially taught, by working it out on herself....

I think you shouldn't feel nervous about asking the teacher, i am sure that she would rather explain things to you than have you sit worrying about it.
I would be very surprised if there is no room for movement within the groups, is it possible she was saying that the groups work will be consistent for their level throughout the year not that the children in the groups are static? (if that makes sense)

Hello all, I was so shattered yesterday that I couldnt write. I talked to the teacher starting that I understand there is difference between her reading, writing and phonics, and my child is aware of it and it might affect her confidence. The teahcer explained that in the informal assessments they did in the first half-term, those who knew completely phase 5, are in the top group and there are sounds in phase 5, (wouldnt know on top of the mind) that she has not quite mastered. So basically the other group has started phase 6, and therefore this group will remain behind until the end of teh year, as the program is set weekly.
The teacher said i must trust her and she will never hold children back. I told her my child in bi-lingual which is a good thing, but she was categorised last year as ESL ( i didnt care then) but I want to make sure that this is not taken as negative and is not something she will carry on.
I asked so the present gap will never close, and how do we know that they dont change in a couple of weeks, interms of their attention span and concentration. I even brought example that my child recently likes to read on the train like adults...and I also said that her present group seems to be very wide (as I understand from my daughter) so how does that work. and the fact that she can never be good enough for the other group could knock her confidence (as it has already).
she didnt have any answer. and had a go on me that I have taken her valuable time and she is a professional and I am one of thos parents who takes their childrens words as a gospel! I smiled, apologised that i had taken her valuable time and said I never meant to take your valuable time, I am a parent with questions and things that I dont undersatnd and want to help my child. And I also told her I am not taking my childs words 100% thats why I am here. I am being honest and open. She said you want your child to be the best of the class!!! I said no, I want her to be the best of her potential! happy and confident. then she apologised that she lost it! and I tried to make sure we finish okay, but I was so pissed off...I mentioned at reception there were also groups but they would move between them half-termly, and she said Y1 is different.
I guess if I need to work on her phase5, I also have to ask the teacher again, how much of phase 6, the group will cover by the end of this term, so I know I need to work on that perhaps a bit during the holidays. Then I guess I am better off writing things, so that I dont get this type of reactions anymore. I didnt want it to be like that but she suddenly started.
Are thingss that happen in the classroom are secrets? why shouldnt I listen to my child's concerns. What kind of message they are trying to give, if for the whole year kids are going to stay in the same group? this doesnt leave any incentive for improvement? If my child wants and thinks she should be in the other group, why not helping her to be there?

Perhaps I should make sure she knows all phase5, and (if the teacher tell me, that biot of phase6 they covered), then I will go after the holidays. This is demoralising, it is a school I fought to get a place in appeal, and now I am so disappinted.
Thats was a story, in Balamory!

IS the program so rigid and written on stone? or should it be based on how children can take it!

By the look of things, it seems that the program is a gospel!!!

You would be better off completing all of phase 5 and all of phase 6 at home and let her study the current phase 5 at school as well.

To be honest I thought this would happen. The teacher thinks you're criticising her (which you are in a way,) and that's why she got upset with you. But, in the end I don't think there really ever was going to be a way for you to get what you want (which is your daughter in a higher phonics group) if the teacher disagrees and wants her in a lower phonics group without somebody (or everybody) getting upset. But in the end it's up to the teacher because you can't put your daughter in the higher group. And when people fight out their different opinions like this it sometimes goes much worse than it needs to. Because if the teacher is sore and upset now, even if you cover phase 5, phase 6 (and assuming there is one) phase 7 and maybe even phase 8 absolutely faultlessly, she might still come up with some imaginary reason why your daughter can't move up a group. She doesn't sound that open to taking parent's opinions on board, I'm afraid.

what is phase 6? I looked it up and it is suffixes and prefixes am I right?

If the teacher had wanted to help you in your efforts to move your daughter up a group she would have offered you support and guidance before now. It sounds from her comments about 'you have to trust her and not take up any more of her valuable time', as though she doesn't like you getting involved in how she teaches phonics. Unless you win her round I can't see how this can go well for you and your daughter. And I can see it eating away at you because you feel that your daughter is being treated unfairly.

She probably is not being treated unfairly if it really is true that she doesn't know all of her phase 5 sounds. The teacher is actually probably right.

(But to be fair to involved parents, the teacher could also be more encouraging of parents who want to support their children at home and advance their phonics knowledge more quickly. I don't think alienating parents and making it clear that their concerns are a waste of valuable school time is the right way to go about things.)

What phonics course are they following?

I see what you mean Learnandsay, but being a teacher is a hard job I appreciate it, but why should she be sore and hold a child back (at least in her grouping) to give an interested parent (who doesnt know the school education system in this country) explanations of why things are the way they are. I am not new to that setting, my child has been there since the age of 1.5 in the same children centre in the same premises as the school. I have had meetings with her carers and last year teacher, but was never told that I am taking their valuable time at the end of the class. I even helped the children with their reading last year voluntarily, so perhaps thats why I know many of them and how they do. But last year's teacher would give updates weekly on a paper, that what sounds each groups are covering, what do they do for literacy etc.
This si different. If she takes things on my child I would be devestated. She was even labelling me, and I am concerned that my child stays in the not good enough label for a few years as she said until perhaps the gap closes.
I am working mum, who tries also to be on board with my childs education, whats wrong with that?

I dont know what phonics course. I think it is synthetic phonics. Last year the teacher told us about letters-and-sounds website.

Here are a couple of threads about phonics teaching. If the teachers are finding it tricky there's a chance that you might too. But you can always look.

community.tes.co.uk/forums/t/627588.aspx
community.tes.co.uk/forums/t/582910.aspx

You might try taking the teacher's advice and leaving her to teach her class in her own way. I know it's tempting to want your daughter to be in the top phonics set. But isn't it right that she isn't yet there if her phonics knowledge is not as good as the phonics knowledge of some of the other children?

Can you afford a tutor? Maybe you can find a tutor who knows about phonics. You can teach yourself about the contents of phase 5 and 6 and then ask the tutor questions. If you like her answers you can hire her and she can teach your daughter the phonics that she needs to know.

(Or maybe you just leave things as they are.)

I can't afford a tutor and tbh I dont think it is neccessary. I would rather doing a bit myself with her (am trying to educate myself) and let her have fun doing her drawings and other stuff. But very disappointed overall. And I take your word and dont ask her how much the other has covered during this term, as it seems pointless. She said she can give me the phase 5 sound mat!!! I already have it and I dont think it supports me on how to do things.
I could speak to the Y1-2 Phase leader or head teacher , but I dont want things to go back on her. She is a very sensitive child.

As I see it, the situation is exactly as the teacher told you. The top group knew all the phase 5 sounds, so could move straight on to phase 6. The next group have to revise some of phase 5 before they can move on to phase 6, which I am sure they will do shortly.

While the programme may not be so rigid that it is set in stone, it sounds quite formal, so specific things that are covered in a particular order; so that if a child was to move groups, they will either have missed an important part of the work, or the teacher would have to re-teach the work covered so far just for the benefit of one. As it is, your DD is in a group that will be working on the same syllabus, but just a few weeks behind. The children will all finish up being able to read, so no-one will be able to tell who was in what group in a year's time.

I guess if I need to work on her phase5, I also have to ask the teacher again, how much of phase 6, the group will cover by the end of this term, so I know I need to work on that perhaps a bit during the holidays.

Why do you have to do that? That is what the teacher will be doing with the group your DD is in. The only reason for you to do that is because you are so desparate for your DD to be in the top group - why? Just for the sake of being in the top group?

It might be some consolation that Letters and Sounds only contains 6 phases, so once they have finished phase 6, the teacher's current groupings will be redundant and children will be grouped for something else and your DD may well be in the top group.

I dont want her to be in the top group for the sake of it. She thought why she is reading and writing with the same lot is not in the same group, asking me if she is not fast enough? Then I learnt about it all...she reads and writes with those of the top group, so she is puzzled why?
I have not been teaching her anything at all so far....apart from reading with her and taking interest in her homework.

B4r4 - take a deep breath.

you have a year one daughter who is bilingual and bright and clearly making excellent progress.

the teacher has explained to you quite clearly why your daughter did not make the top group - and you have had some good advice on here as to how you can support your daughter at home.

I'd let it go personally- this is not about holding your daughter back. Phonics is just one part of reading and whether she's level 5 or 6 she'll be fine in the long run. (who even knew there were phonics levels?)

try to relax - this is a long path for you and your daughter

Thanks...

Look at the letter and sounds website , it lists all the phases (there are only 6 btw).

My DC school do not teach phase 6 till yr2 usually...

I would do as LandS says and just crack on with phase 5 and 6 at home (if you want to) and not worry about what is going on the the classroom (WRT which group she is in, not the actual work she does at school iyswim)...

I have to say that even though her explanation of the grouping is perfectly valid and you should not worry about that, i would be cross about the way she spoke to you. this is not an acceptable way to speak to a parent about their concerns. School should not be a secret and teachers should be willing to explain and help parents support their children. I would have thought that most teachers would not have reacted that way.

@ "Housework"! I know. I really felt so bad. I had never let anyone talk to me like that, but I just had to swollow it, becasue my child is in their hands. TBW the school teachers that so far I had come across with was not like that at all. Always talking about parent-teacher partnership....I was shocked...I was going to say "is that not part of your job to communicate with parents"? She was cross with my level and depth of information I guess which I thought was so simple...If other parents feel happy to exchange ideas and speak about how their kids does, why shoudl that bother the teacher?
In fact the onw of the mums whos child was and is struggling a bit told me the other day that the chid is still reading red and she was worried..as simple as that, and I knew that her child is in the same group as mine, so basically they took some from the top and a small SEN children and the rest are together. The teacher told me the other groups are taught by TAs and I have taken this group becasue of the width....confirming I was right that her group is a broad one...........anyway this just makes me think would she speak with all the parents like that???? I wouldnt think so!

If the school is following Letters and Sounds most Y1 children will be following Phase 5. Phase 5 covers all the alternative spellings for sounds. Phase 6 is a bit of a nothing phase which could be taught at any point and covers suffixes and prefixes.
It sounds as if there is a small extension group of children and an intervention group and the bulk of the class including your daughter covering phonics work expected for most Y1 children.

Thx mrz, I think they started or perhaps finished phase 5 at reception at the group my d was, and she knows them, I opened the website and she tells the sounds on their own and within a word. Not always perhaps. So do you mean that the sounds are finished ? How about ough sounds, they are not in phase 5 mat I've got.
Amy comments or advice for me on how to communicate with the teacher or not?

All 44 sounds have been taught by the end of Phase 3 if you use Letters and Sounds. Phase 5 teaches the common alternative ways they are written in English. Phase 6 does not teach any of the less common alternative spellings for the sounds.

We were told that letters and sounds as a reference for games but I am not sure if that's what they DI. Phase mats are printed from sparkle box.com, how should I know if that's it.

Did the school send home Sparklebox printables?

Can I ask what reading school books the school sends home?

Our school uses sparkle box too sometimes

I think I may have to pint DD's teacher to google....