my child reads and write at top level, but her Phonics group is not!!!

[B4r4joon]

My daughter is a very bright child at Y1...she is reading and writing very well...however when it came to grouping them, she is not been located in the top group in Phonics, although she reads the same level and writes the same as those children on the top group. This is very confusing for her amd me, as I dont understand on what basis this happened. She can be at times shy and she observes her peers very well and learn from them as she is bi-lingual. In the gropu she is in now, the difference between the level she reads and the level of some other children is huge...perhaps 7 colour reading band!!!

This has affecte dmy childs confidence as she thinks she hasnt been good enough, or why she is reading the same book as her reading partner, and he/she is in another group. ALl confusing for me, I am gonna talk to the teacher tomorrow, and I dont know how to say it. i dont want to convey that I dont trust their judgment, but this is gonna hold my child back and crashes her confidence, as the groups are gonna stay the same until the end of teh year! Can I ask the teacher to move my child to the other group? Is Phonics the knowledge that they learn to apply to their writing and reading, so how can she read and write higher than her phonics knowledge? She is already reading sounds that she has not been officially taught, by working it out on herself....

[yellowsubmarine53]

That's a problem with the school, not RWI, I would say.

My dc's school has just switched to using it, and they mix the Y1 and Y2 classes, and the KS2 children who need it with KS2.

How do teachers simply differentiate within a class for all subjects including literacy and numeracy in for example like my dd's Y1 class where the reading range is from above lime level to pin and children arrive every half term with no English and having never set foot inside a school before whilst some are working at 2b or above in maths and reading? Where there's over 50% FSM, over 80% EAL and over 70% of the children are in the lowest poverty/deprivation band nationally?

I've seen how general topic work is skilfully differentiated, but not how one teacher and one TA can meet the literacy and numeracy of such a range of children.

That Guardian article doesn't really hit the spot with schools like this - you can't have over 70% of children on the 'bottom table' or whatever. And in fact it doesn't - the majority of Y1 children in the top Y2 phonics group don't have English have a first language and are on FSMs.

[maizieD]

By the way, whoever sent a Y6 pupil to study phonics with a Y1 class should be shot.

Whoever has allowed a child to reach Y6 without the phonic knowledge they should have learned in Y1 needs to be shot...

(Yes, before you all shout at me, I appreciate that there may be extenuating circumstances, such as a child joining the school in Y6 with poor phonic knowledge)

To be fair to RWI, Ruth Miskin does emphasise that children who are falling behind should be given extra help at the time that they need it to keep up with their peers. Once RWI is established across a school there shouldn't be any need for such extreme mixing of age groups.

[mrz]

Setting widens the gap between the top and the bottom of the class rather than closing it.

In my experience pink to lime is a pretty typical speed of ability and you differentiate by providing books at an appropriate level and I don't have a TA yellowsub.

[mrz]

Sorry maizieD but I really don't see why year groups need to be mixed

[learnandsay]

Yellowsub, depending on how its inspections are going I'd imagine that the priorities for such a school are set by the head. (And to some extent the governors.) Our local school has an intake pretty similar to the one you're describing. The head there seems to be an expert in SEN provision and has really geared her school up for that task. She seems to be well respected among local teachers, (some of whom are our friends) even though they don't work in her school. The school is impressive in very many ways. But it has mediocre academic results.

[simpson]

Mrz - out of interest,how often do you listen to each child read and what do the other children do while you are reading with one?? Or do they read as a group??

(not having a dig - genuinely interested )

[mrz]

The other children go out to play or to assembly while I'm listening to a child read simpson ...I hear all children read at least once a week usually more often and I do shared reading everyday where every child reads from a class book.

[simpson]

Is it yr3 or 2 that you teach?? I forget

DS is in yr3 and has been heard 121 twice this year but maybe another 3 or 4 times by the TA.

Not criticising his teacher though, she is fab...

He does loads of group reading though in class....

I just wonder how hard it is to differentiate mixed abilities in the classroom ( I ask as a potential TA,not a parent btw!!)

[simpson]

Twice this year with his teacher, I mean

[CanIHaveAPetGiraffePlease]

The school she'd go tohas 3 forms in a year so they don't mix ages, just within classes. It does seem a lovely school with a very mixed intake. I would guess its likely my daughter given her background would be in the top group initially (purely as she knows sounds and is begining to blend and some children come in not having seen a book) so perhaps it will be to her advantage. I'd rather it didn't stay that way just based on family experience though.

The other school uses jolly phonics and keeps them within their classes (I saw differentiated work for maths on tables though).

Not that its the only thing I'd choose a school on, but being set and changing classes twice a day is quite a lot for a small child. Although apparently they do get to know a range of friends etc.

[B4r4joon]

Mrz, where would you advice me start the conversation with the teacher ? And how to take it?

[simpson]

Ask the TA (or whoever is at the door when you drop your DD off in the morning, if it's possible for you to have a chat about your DD's reading when you pick her up). I would mention reading so it gives your teacher a heads up to what you want to talk about....

[simpson]

Then I would just say that you have noticed that there is a difference between her reading ability and where she is placed for phonics and can you do anything to help???

Let the chat flow from there, depending on what the teacher says...but make sure you ask how you can help your DD progress and ask any weaknesses she may have...and advice on how to progress on from here....maybe ask about how fluid the ability groups are for phonics...

Once you have got said "list" then make sure your DD knows it all before going back!!!

[Rudolphstolemycarrots]

How do you really know that she is at top set level? I guess someone has to be the best in the middle group? Surely that's better then being the bottom of the top set?

[yellowsubmarine53]

Yes, I get that children are given books at a different level but that's only a small part of literacy. How does one teacher meet the learning needs of children who have no English and are learning SATPIN etc at the same time and in the same room as those who are a high level 2 at reading and writing?

Genuine question. My friend's school with a similar demographic to ours brought in RWI last year and literacy progress has accelerated across the school. One of the reasons they brought it in was the ever increasing gaps between higher and lower achievers - these have closed considerably now. Too early to tell in our school, but hoping for the same.

[yellowsubmarine53]

canIhaveagiraffe, my dd's school differentiated across reception classes for phonics, I think from about the autumn half term. It's a 2 form intake, so 4 groups. My dd is definitely one of the more highly strung kids, and she was unphased by it. They did some class phonics work, then split into groups for 30 mins or so.

You're right to say that children who have English as a first language, support at home etc are generally a fair way ahead of their contemporaries when they start school, but this should narrow if they are well taught. The children who were in the 'top' phonics group in reception aren't necessarily the same ones who are in it now, and some of the children who weren't able to recognise or write numbers when they started reception are now absolutely flying at maths.

[B4r4joon]

She has been reading Turquise since the half term, it is too easy and I guess soon she will be on purple. I couldn't upload a file but this is what she wrote on early November: " once upon a time there was a boy called Jack he lived with his mother. They were very poor. One day jacks mother tolld him to sel the cow for muny . On the way he sor a man . It wos a wisood. The wizood givd him some majic bens."

[B4r4joon]

This would be great if the groups were fluid. If they stay the same, means everyone else will stay behind the top group and they will be out of reach!

[yellowsubmarine53]

are you sure that children won't move between groups at all? Maybe check with with the teacher that you haven't got hold of the wrong end of the thread.

It would be worth asking whether your child would be moved if she finds the work in her current group either too hard or easy.

[learnandsay]

b4r4,

once upon a time there was a boy called Jack he lived with his mother. They were very poor. One day jacks mother tolld him to sel the cow for muny . On the way he sor a man . It wos a wisood. The wizood givd him some majic bens.


Are the capital letters and full stops yours or hers? If they're hers then she's doing very well. Does she know what a sentence is? It looks from this piece as though she does.

But if you showed her


I am tall.
The tall man is
We are all tired and
I'm fat and I have no hair.

could she tell you which ones were sentences and which ones were not and why? (in simple terms I mean.)

If she can do all that (and it looks as though she might be able to,) then she is, as you say, doing very well.

[CanIHaveAPetGiraffePlease]

(thanks yellow -reassuring it can work well! )

[B4r4joon]

@Learnandsay, the punctuation is hers. I will check to see if she can tell which ones are a sentence. She also changes her tone of voice when she reads phrases in quotation etc.
@yellowSubmarine: in my very short 10 min parent evening the teacher told me that a child might move down a group if they need extra support, but not up!!!! Makes me really angry I have to admit!

[yellowsubmarine53]

That sounds most unusual and inappropriate.

Do you think your child's learning needs are not being met in her current group?

[B4r4joon]

I am not too sure, I think she really has the potential to go forward and she is doing well...my point is now that they have grouped them why one group consists of very similar higher ability children, and the one that mine is there ranges from (perhpas my child is kind of top of her group), to those still reading red. SO I guess her phonics lessons, are more tailored to let the bottom group catch up, IF the teacher teaches at her level, perhaps the lower part of the group would not benefit!

[learnandsay]

Maybe if the teacher was explaining her grouping system on mumsnet it would sound very different. At the moment the teacher's system just sounds odd, unfair and a bit stupid. But we've only had a partial view of it.

But, in a way, the teacher's real system is not what this thread is about. This thread is about how can the OP support her daughter and how can she enquire whether or not her daughter's needs as far as phonics learning are being met or not and if they are not being met then what can she and the teacher do about it? (The groups could be irrelevant in the end. There are lots of other ways of learning.)