teacher accusing my kids of lying - WWYD ?

[StickyFloor]

I have twins in Y4, 29 kids in the class made up of Y3 and Y4 mixed class. The class is organised by ability and they are on the "top table" with 3 others.

X in Y3 was recently moved onto their table because a girl on there was misbehaving so the teacher moved her to the front of the class (regardless of ability). X is known to be a real troublemaker, not in a nasty way just immature fiddling, chatting, mucking about way.

Since the start of term all the kids have been full of stories about the daft things he did and how the whole class was being constantly disrupted. I have helped on 2 school trips and seen for myself that the whole day is spent listening to the teacher randomly shouting "stop it X" "that's enough X" on and on and on.

I didn't pay much attention and told my kids to try and ignore it, but when he moved on to their table the disruption was too in their faces to ignore.

I spoke to the HT briefly who laughed and said that the teacher is just moving X around to try and even out the pain for whichever table he is on!

I spoke to the teacher who said she things it has worked out really well on top table and he is much calmer, probably because they try and ignore him so he has no-one to feed off. I said I could well believe that, but it wasn't fair that they should have to bear the brunt of it in the meantime. She asked for time for things to settle, and I said i would keep an eye on things.

One week went by and they complained every single day about him. On 2 days things were so bad that he was sent out of class completely. I decided to wait until tomorrow's parents' evening to raise this.

Today, M, on their table, came out upset that X had hit her in class and when she told, the teacher said "sit down and stop telling tales". My son then went up to the teacher and said it's true, he has been bothering us all and he did just hit her. Teacher said the exact same thing to him too. Earlier in the day another child from the table had complained about him jabbing pencils on the desk and been told to sit down too. My dd confirmed all of this had happened.

This evening M's mum had her parents evening session and the teacher said that she thinks the kids on top table have taken against X because he has a bad reputation and are making up stories, and she wants them to calm down and show him a good example.

To say I am furious is an understatement. But the teacher and HT both have form for telling children that they are mistaken and telling parents that their kids are confused or exaggerating etc. This time there are 3 kids all saying exactly the same things and they are being accused of collusion. Apart from the fact that I am not happy with them having to put up with X pestering them all day every day I am livid that both my children are being accused of lying and deliberately trying to get another child into trouble.

My parents evening slot is tomorrow, so what do I do if she says the same thing to me?

Because the school is tiny with mixed classes they will not be together next year, but then they will be together again in 2 years time when they are in Y6 and X is in Y5 but that is a long time away so I am not worrying about that yet!

HT can be quite indiscreet sometimes but I think in the context of the other boy she said as little as possible while letting me and other mums whose children had been hurt know that they were on the case, there were special circumstances and things were being done. Many times she said that she wouldn't give me details (rightly so) and that I had to trust that she was dealing with things behind the scenes to help this other boy. Yes, I understand that is a breach of that child's privacy, but I guess she must have thought it was necessary to give some sort of explanation to stop police being called, SS being called and parent fights in the playground (not me!)

Although I'm not surprised that child complaining about X 'jabbing pencils on the desk' has been told to sit down & stop telling tales. Yes, its annoying, but things like this aren't really helpful & presumably the teacher has been advised to try & ignore minor issues as part of behaviour management of X.

The 'X' in DS class ended up with diagnosis of ADHD and a ed psych friend has said that encouraging the other pupils to try to ignore minor misbehaviours (not hitting) would be a common strategy advised.

But is that fair on the others in the class? Sure a child with ADHD needs his own strategies and help to get him through. But what about the rest of the class who are being disadvantaged whilst he gets the help that he needs?

I suppose it is a question of compassion and understanding, which many posters have pointed out are thigns my kids should be learning, so this could be a lesson for them. But there is a line isn't there?

They must try and get over themselves and not be so picky about EVERYTHING, they must try and understand if X can't help what he is doing, they must try and show him a good example, and they must not be unkind along the way. OK I can see that. But how far do they have to go before someone actually this is too much of a burden - the whispering, giggling, fiddling, dropping things, singing, chanting, jabbing fingers, pulling paper, hitting............ and how many times a day must they ignore, understand, smile and get on with it. They are 8 ffs and just trying to put their heads down and get on with what they are doing.

I have a child in my class with Asbergers. He is an X. He is bright, intelligent, lively .... and constantly disruptive, generally in a low-level manner.

I am amazed how tolerant and kind most of the children are, apart from one or two families, whose children constantly complain, whose parents constantly come in to complain about him and who have banned their children from sitting next to him/talking to him/playing with him, which the children inform him at the top of their voices should he even stray into the same area of the playground.

I wish those parents could see him when he sits and sobs because 'they were my friends and now I don't have friends'. Sometimes with his mother.

LaBelle that sounds awful for the child and his mum.

DD is in a wheelchair and I am frequently moved when I witness how caring and understanding the other kids are with her. To date we have never had a bad incident with her at school and I find the other kids unequivocal acceptance of her quite breathtaking.

I think it can often be harder when a child has behavioural or learning disabilities purely because they can have an impact on other children and that is where the conflict occurs. I can feel sympathy with the parents complaining, that whether your young man has AS or was just naughty is actually irrelevent, the point is that he is bothering their kids. Why they would ban their children from playing with him is a mystery to me unless they are worried his disability is contagious??????? but if he is disrupting their children's ability to learn and concentrate in class then i do understand their concerns. Just maybe not how they have gone about it.

An update for those who were kind enough to give their thoughts:

First thing this morning teacher moved X off their table without any explanation. My kids came out and told me this and then have had nothing much else to say about their day!

At parents evening I brought up yesterday's upset and said i was concerned that ds felt he couldn't approach his teacher and was dismissed and told off for telling tales when he and I felt he wasn't. She said she told him to sit down because she doesn't like any kids wandering around for any reason, they must put up their hands and wait for her to go over. I said that is fine and I will pass that on for future use, no prob.

I queried the telling tales reprimand and she said that she didn't exactly mean that and was sorry if it had come across like that, she just wanted him and others to shush and sit down and let her deal with the issues at a suitable time. I didn't push it further.

I asked if he ds is being a pest and over-reacting to X and other stuff or has a history of telling tales etc that I need to be aware of and she said no, there is no prob, I just don't want him or others getting up, that is all that she was trying to get across.

Finally I said well I hope she felt she could take his concerns seriously particularly regarding X which had been brewing over a week and clearly escalated yesterday, because ds had felt that he was ignored and nothing happened. Without getting into details of who said what and who did what she said that she did listen and she did take him seriously and she had dealt with X as she saw fit, and he had now been moved.

Having spoken briefly to the HT I firmly believe that she wasn;t going to do anything on the other kids' say so but has caved in to pressure from me and Ms mum and perhaps from Ht too. Whatever, it doesn't matter. There was no accusation of lying, and X has been moved which is a result of sorts.

So where has x been moved to? Onto another table where the kids parents won't complain. Yes I can see that would be a result.

Well, either the teacher learns to control him, or he disrupts my kids, or he disrupts some other kids - of the 3 options the teacher has gone for the last one. For us, that is better than leaving him there and doing nothing.

Hopefully she is also going to have a crack at helping him to behave better, but that is out of my control.

You have no reason to believe that the teacher doesn't control him as much as she possibly can. What she can't do is make him behave in the way your children behave. Children come to school with different strengths, weaknesses, backgrounds and some come with special educational needs which might mean that they have other associated difficulties remaining focused. You have made such a fuss that the teacher has moved the problem of working alongside X onto another table and other children. As long as your children are not 'annoyed' by x fiddling or being silly sometimes, this is now OK. I am appalled by your attitude. I also think your child has missed an opportunity to learn about difference and tolerance and respect for others. I think you will find that your ability to protect your children from less successful children in school will lessen as they get older. Let's hope you never have to be on the receiving end of intolerance towards your children or grand children.

Plus I should say that as a teacher I had a parent whose child was annoyed by another less able, child who had some social and emotional difficulties. The difference was that the parent said I told him to be tolerant of the ther child for a term and then I said I would ask if he could have a change as I thought this was fair. She also asked if it could be done sensitively as she didn't want the other child to feel bad about the move. I really appreciated that she had understood that her ds had to show some understanding and tolerance for the other child. I was able to do a general move round that I then did agin for the third term.

I stand by my attitude completely. I want my kids to knuckle down and do their work and they can't do that with X constantly chipping away.

My kids understand that lots of kids are less able and less successful than they are and don't give a toss. They also understand that some kids have different values and priorities eg absences from school, uniform, not doing homework, swearing, fighting, staying up etc etc They know how we do things is not better or worse just different, and each to their own. They have been taught both tolerance and respect and to keep their opinions to themselves and not judge.

X is actually quite bright I believe, so ability and sucess are nothing to do with this.

He is disruptive and naughty and I don't understand or tolerate that, and nor should they. If he has SN then they need to provide him with support but actually the fabulously indiscreet HT and the teacher say he is naughty and having trouble settling in, as does his own mum.

My ability to protect my children will diminish undoubtedly, so what? As long as I can fight their corner then I will.

I went back and re read your op because I wondered what terrible things x had been doing to your dc. I read that he had hit someone and been jabbing pencils on the desk. X seems to have been on your dc table for about a week. Your dc have complained about him every single day. I can see that you think it's fine that you have moved this problem child along. I can see that you think your attitude is fine. I have said all I can to make you consider the bigger picture.

"The kind of thing he does are tapping his pencil on the table constantly, deliberately emptying his tray on the floor, deliberately reaching over and moving other kids' arms or books while they are working, singing and humming while they are reading or working, asking to go to the toilet repeatedly and then saying he doesn't really need to go, pretending he has dropped things, moving his chair backwards and forwards for no reason, and up close to others on the table so he is touching them. Silly stuff that drives the others mad when they are supposed to be working."

"Well, either the teacher learns to control him, or he disrupts my kids, or he disrupts some other kids - of the 3 options the teacher has gone for the last one. For us, that is better than leaving him there and doing nothing."

What exactly do you expect the teacher to do in order to control him? Tie him to the chair? Sellotape his mouth up?! She may be extremely experienced in classroom control but if X has ADHD or Aspergers for example, there may not be anything more she can do within the constraints of the help (or no help) she has in the classroom! Moving him around may be the best option available to her.

It may be that X has been referred for assessment for ADHD or Aspergers, but this takes time. It may be that his parents are not in agreement with him being assessed in which case it is hardly the teacher's fault, or the child's. Unless he has some formal assessment that leads to a statement, it is unlikely that there will be any additional money to provide say a TA who could take him out and work one-to-one if he becomes disruptive!

IT seems that X is not responding well to usual forms of behaviour management, but then children with conditions like ADHD or PDA often don't.

What do you think the teacher should be doing to control him that she isn't already?

I really don't think the op has any idea about what the teacher could or should do. She is simply happy that the problem has now gone away and the top table can work in peace.

Well it doesn't sound like the teacher or HT have any better ideas cansu and it's not really her place to have the ideas is it?

My daughter has SN so I understand the process very well thanks.

I also know, from the HT, the teacher and the mother that X does not have any SN diagnosed or even suspected. I am not just making this up to suit myself.

I am happy that he is off their table but actually I am not happy that the problem has gone away because clearly it hasn't, it has just been moved a few feet away.

I don't understand why posters cannot just accept that a child is naughty and have to assume it is SN. Or are there no naughty kids now? I actually find it hilarious that you assume there must be some SN issue. He is naughty, immature, silly, a bit of a fool, high-spirited, attention seeking, but that is not the same as SN.

I also don't understand why I am supposed to accept that the teacher has done her best, failed, so never mind she can't do much else. If we were talking about amother letting her child behave like this we would be suggesting all kinds of parenting tips for her to get her child under control wouldn't we? Or is that just me?

And to answer your question, I would teach him right from wrong and that bad behaviour will be punished and good behaviour will be rewarded. Star charts, reward sheets, stickers vs missing playtime. I would comment on every single good thing and I would pick up on every single bad thing. This is how I brought up my own kids so that they don't piss off their classmates for no apparent reason. If necessary I would isolate him on his own table until i could trust him to sit with others without behaving badly. And before you faint with shock at that suggestion, this is exactly what the school themsleves chose to do with another boy last year who was violen,t whilst they waited for his 121 to be funded.

As X is quite bright, he may have been in rightful place on the 'top' table.

Sounds like the blatant ability groupings are causing a social divide as well as an academic one.

Within the 29 kids you have the full range across 2 year groups of those who cannot read Biff and Chip or add 2 + 2 through to those who are given Y6 SATS papers to have a bash at while the others repeat something they have already done. I doubt the teacher could manage without ability groupings as she doesn't have a TA in with her and has to dart around from one table to another. Like spinning plates she says!

I can practically guarantee 100% that each teacher that X has had has tried all your suggestions. His current teacher won't be sitting on her laurels, she will be trying to come up with workable solutions all the time. Systems that work at home don't necessarily work in school. They can't be sabotaged by 29 other children and don't need to be workable with 29 other children. Who'd be a teacher?

You can have movable groups - they don't need to be tied to the same places. Sometimes it is good to mix abilities. It isn't necessary to have the children sitting in ability groups all the time, because it gives the children the wrong message - either of superiority or inferiority.

You could have been talking about my son (now 13).

At primary, he got a name for himself - the class clown. Unfortunately it stuck no matter who it was that misbehaved and he was a scapegoat even if he hadn't done anything. He stood up and took the punishment on numerous occasions because that's all he knew - being told off. We had a behaviour specialist go in and witnessed this happening. Not once, but lots of times.

At one parents evening his teacher said that on one particular day (he used to sit by himself) that they needed to work in groups and no one wanted him. I could have wept , it still brings tears to my eyes now.

Put yourself in his mum's shoes and think about how she must feel eh!

cansu, what do you expect from the OP?

X may have SN. The OP can do nothing to help this.

The teaching may be lacking in terms of class control or appropriate guidance to the OP's DCs about how to react when they are annoyed. The OP can do very little about this other than raise her concerns with the teacher and HT, which she has done.

X may need more support / discipline / a different classroom approach. The OP can do nothing about this.

The OP has acknowledged that this is only a result of sorts and that out of the various possibilities, the teacher has improved things for the OP's DC though possibly not for X or for other kids in the class. That's where her concern ends, do you want her to parent X and the kids he sits by now as well?

Seriously, what more do you expect her to do? Go in and complain that X has been moved? Interfere about how X's behaviour is being dealt with beyond how it affects her own DC?

I'm genuinely curious about what the OP could do/say here that would satisfy you.

poor x
does he have no friends at all?