teacher accusing my kids of lying - WWYD ?

[StickyFloor]

I have twins in Y4, 29 kids in the class made up of Y3 and Y4 mixed class. The class is organised by ability and they are on the "top table" with 3 others.

X in Y3 was recently moved onto their table because a girl on there was misbehaving so the teacher moved her to the front of the class (regardless of ability). X is known to be a real troublemaker, not in a nasty way just immature fiddling, chatting, mucking about way.

Since the start of term all the kids have been full of stories about the daft things he did and how the whole class was being constantly disrupted. I have helped on 2 school trips and seen for myself that the whole day is spent listening to the teacher randomly shouting "stop it X" "that's enough X" on and on and on.

I didn't pay much attention and told my kids to try and ignore it, but when he moved on to their table the disruption was too in their faces to ignore.

I spoke to the HT briefly who laughed and said that the teacher is just moving X around to try and even out the pain for whichever table he is on!

I spoke to the teacher who said she things it has worked out really well on top table and he is much calmer, probably because they try and ignore him so he has no-one to feed off. I said I could well believe that, but it wasn't fair that they should have to bear the brunt of it in the meantime. She asked for time for things to settle, and I said i would keep an eye on things.

One week went by and they complained every single day about him. On 2 days things were so bad that he was sent out of class completely. I decided to wait until tomorrow's parents' evening to raise this.

Today, M, on their table, came out upset that X had hit her in class and when she told, the teacher said "sit down and stop telling tales". My son then went up to the teacher and said it's true, he has been bothering us all and he did just hit her. Teacher said the exact same thing to him too. Earlier in the day another child from the table had complained about him jabbing pencils on the desk and been told to sit down too. My dd confirmed all of this had happened.

This evening M's mum had her parents evening session and the teacher said that she thinks the kids on top table have taken against X because he has a bad reputation and are making up stories, and she wants them to calm down and show him a good example.

To say I am furious is an understatement. But the teacher and HT both have form for telling children that they are mistaken and telling parents that their kids are confused or exaggerating etc. This time there are 3 kids all saying exactly the same things and they are being accused of collusion. Apart from the fact that I am not happy with them having to put up with X pestering them all day every day I am livid that both my children are being accused of lying and deliberately trying to get another child into trouble.

My parents evening slot is tomorrow, so what do I do if she says the same thing to me?

Who is confabulating?

Teacher told 3 individual children to stop "telling tales" and told M's mum that she thought the kids had got together and "made up stories" about X. I think that making up stories is lying isn't it? I think the teacher is inconsistent in the way she is trying to duck this.

There are no TAs in classrooms unfortunately.

I like sittinginthesun's suggestions.

Fwiw, I am a Y3 TA and kids this age are always 'telling tales' on each other, eg 'he stuck his tongue out at me', 'she's copying me', 'he used my pencil', 'she was swinging on her chair', and I do often say to children 'it doesn't matter what he's doing, get on with your own work!' Perhaps this is what the teacher meant?

Think you need to try and split the two issues here. One issue is the long term problem of X's behaviour in the classroom, the other is the apparent problem with the teacher preferring to not believe 3 pupils off the top table in favour of X.
You are never going to solve the problem of X's behaviour, that is for the school to resolve in one way or another or the school will have to accept the potential consequences. That is that the pupils on the top table all go to another school (assuming there is one that you can go to). All you as parents can do is keep impressing on the teacher and the head teacher the consequences of allowing X to continue to be a pain in the b*m.
When it come to the issue of who is telling the truth, I think you need to see what happens tomorrow night. I would comment on the issue of the nuisance this kid causes and how much the other children are upset and disturbed by it and then see what is said. If the teacher repeats the accusation that they are making it up, then I would ask the teacher to put that in writing to you as you now wish to take this further with the head teacher. I suspect that the teacher will have the sense not to put anything in writing and that should be the end of the matter. If they are stupid enough to put it in writing then you make a formal written complaint to the head teacher about the accusation made by the teacher.
I would hope that you demonstrating that you will stand up for your child will mean the teacher understands that you mean business, because in reality it does need to be sorted.

I would speak nicely to the teacher first before going in on the offensive and aggravating the situation. Find out (from her pov) what is going on.

I'm a teacher. Let's just say, I won't believe everything the kids say about their parents/homelife if you don't take their version of events of what's going on at school as the absolute truth! (and trust me, kids DO lie/exaggerate on a regular basis.)

I really don't like all this chit-chat about the class, what levels they're on, who's who etc, presumably based on what you have seen in a very short space of time helping out in the classroom? Another good reason why parent helpers are not always a good idea....

Thanks admission, I like the idea of splitting this into 2 things, as I doubt I can let go of the lying issue.

I had similar thoughts and wanted to ask her why she did not punish these 3 children if she believed that they were deliberately conspiring in order to maliciously get X into trouble.

NEWSFLASH all children exaggerate, tell tales her to put her and make up stories at some time or another. these children are all lovely children whose parents would probably say they never do these things! Someone has suggested to you OP that you ask the teacher to put her accusation of lying in writing so you can take it further. This is so ludicrous as to be funny! I think the more sensible suggestions on this thread are:
tell the teacher you are concerned that X behaviour will impact on your dc learning
Encourage your children to ignore X and focus on their work
Explain to your dc that we all have to cope / tolerate others to a certain degree
Do not go anywhere near the whole lying saga.

The teacher wont discuss x with other parents tho tbh. Stick with yor own dc issues. Does sound like x may have adhd but the teacher wil be well aware of tjis and diagnosing takes like forever! Scwl shouls apply to their SEN panel for support for him. But all this is for scwl to do, not u. As u say yors are academically able, believe me they will thrive in any clsssroom. The mn who sed there are 5 or more x kids in most classes is rite, ur lucky tbh. If u think back im sure ul recall an x from yor own classroom wen u were a kid. Only difference was the label, thats all. We all had an x or more than one but we have done just fine. So wil your kids, dont make so much of it.

Windsurf, of course kids are unreliable witnesses, in both directions, but Xs behaviour is discussed by many children and parents - we all chitchat about him because it is so disruptive. But the kids' versions of events are all so consistent that unless they all have simultaneously plotted against him it seems there is some truth in it.

The fact that HT smirked and said that teacher is moving him around to minimise the impact on each table tells me plenty about the fact that they are struggling to bring him under control.

I base my chitchat on what the teacher and HT have told me, what I have seen for myself, and what other mums tell me about their own kids and their friends' kids in the class. Very few of the mums work so there is plenty of opportunity to hang around the playground and chat and exchange info about our kids. teachers may not like this kind of gossip but that is what happens in the playground morning and afternoon at our school.

Possibly the class have been blaming X for everything and it's not always his fault? We had a child like X. Three children convincingly told us how he'd ruined their playtime by constantly pushing them, X said it wasn't him and it batted back and forth until X reminded us that he'd spent playtime in the HT's office (for a previous misdemeanour). The children then said 'Oh yes, we meant Y not X'! This may explain the 'telling tales' comment if the same thing happens in your school?

Is X's mum/dad in the playground while you are all chitchatting in the playground about X and his disruptive behaviour?

I've had children like x in my class many times.

I have had children coming in from playtime blaming x for all sorts of problems that have occured. Funnily enough x was away that day. This happens on a fairly regular basis.

I think you need to write a list of everything the child has done this week. List events day by day and using bullet points. List what your child said to the teacher and what the teacher said to your child.

Go through the events with teacher item by item. Then go through their bullying strategie. Explain that your children are in effect being bullied. Explain that if things aren't resolved you will be writing to the head/LEA/Govoners

The child really needs to be sat on his own anyway

I am amazed at the level of detail that you know about the classroom. Have you installed cctv ? Ds (y3) couldn tell me what he had for lunch!
Btw I was friends with an x's mum. Be careful about your playground chitchat; it makes a miserable life for someone.
No advice really; I think you will find out very little abou what happens for x, and possibly make the teacher feel a little less kindly to you.

well said balia I totally agree with your first post

Very similar boy in DS class (he is a good friend of DS actually). He was moved from table to table to find less dispruptive position and eventually he was given a small desk for himself next to the teachers.

Seems to be working so far !

Agree re Telling Tales / Lying... if teacher told me DS was telling tales, I would not assume she called him a liar, just that he was bombarding her with " he did" / "she did"

I am an X's mum

He doesn't sit still, constantly hums whilst working, taps his pencil, etc. He would love to stop but he can't. It's impulsive. That doesn't excuse it, just explains it.

Please do watch what you say to your children. I have been shunned in the playground, we have had vicious notes through the door and yes other 'well behaved' children have made up tales about my son just like LeeCoakley said. He's now at a very understanding school, other children still make up tales to get him in more trouble that he gets himself in, but the teachers are very much aware of it and deal with it fairly.

Do you wait for your children to bring up his behaviour or do you ask 'Oh, how was X today, was he annoying?' I really hope it's not the latter. When your children hear you gossip about X it confirms to them that you find him annoying, etc. When you ask how X is they tell you what they think you want to hear. Sometimes these things become like a witch-hunt.

What was X doing to bother the others before he hit the girl? Did the others take it upon themselves to tell him off? Were they all having a go at him? Every story has two sides. I'm not condoning the hitting, but there is usually a reason why children hit out. Maybe the teacher knew what was going on and decided that it was a bit tit for tat.

My advice would be to equip your children with some compassion, explain the X maybe can't help what he does and to be nice to him. Also, stop gossiping about him, you are perpetuating his behaviour. You're right teachers may not like this gossip, nor do the mums or subjects.

?Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people.? Eleanor Roosevelt.

Well said Squirrelly.

I have heard parents that greet their child with "Was X alright today?" Child promptly tells lots of stories. I remember my dd1 listening with puzzlement once and turning to me and saying "they didn't-they were with me and we did this instead". This mother had just taken against one child. A few weeks later she took against a different child and was telling all who would listen about dreadful child Y. Strangely enough it was the same tales she'd been telling about child X.
I remember dd2 telling me about something dreadful a particular child had done, until I pointed out he was in A&E at the same time I was that day.

I disagree that your children are being bullied. I think sometimes people are too quick to cry bully because they think it gets results.
You could say X may well feel he's being bullied if he has three people on his table constantly telling tales and complaining.

SquirrellyWrath makes some excellent points. As a former teacher I have seen this quite a lot - on one occasion I had a parent storm up to me at the end of school saying that X had pushed her child over in the playground and was I finally going to do something about this awful behaviour. When I said that her child had fallen over in a skipping game and X was off sick the mum melted away pretty quickly - but with no apology. Obviously her child had lied that day, but she still believed every single word spoken against X by her cild in the future.

Within the classroom you will often see other things that happen before an event - other children may be winding X up because they know he will react. If he then hits out does that mean they bear no blame? Since you say he is no bully, it seems likely that something triggered the hitting. I would focus on your own children - maybe even ask a question about how they behave with regards to X. If the teacher says they are great, then mention how hard they are finding life with him. If the teacher says they are not being kind to him, then you have an issue to address with your children, and possibly a fuller picture of what is going on.

Great last few posts. Don't ask your dcs leading questions as a rule, you'll hear more about what they're up to.

Thanks to everyone who posted. I want to try and answer some of the points you have raised.

Each day I greet the kids and ask how they got on - I don't mention X or ask how he was, never have done. Often it it is the first thing they say to me. Sometimes they say very much and then mention something in passing later in the day. My response since September has always been, try and ignore him and leave him to it, you just get on with your own work; if it really bothers you then speak to your teacher.

We do not openly gossip about X when his mum is there. On the days when she is there she chatters about what mischief has been up to because she considers him to be a lively and immature child who is a bit of a handful. Nobody has directly pointed out that the other kids are fed up with him, nor is she being shunned.

I have never suggested that my children are being bullied, I think they are being distracted from their work repeatedly, day in day out.

I am quite open to the idea that he may have been provoked before he hit out, after all, why would he hit out for no reason? There must be something upsetting or frustrating this child, and obv I have no idea what. I also have no idea what the school and parents may be doing about it. What I do know though is that the other children haven't been given any advice or support to deal with him, and they are being told to just get on with it and make do. I don't find that acceptable.

A couple of years back there was a different child who was causing trouble but in a very different way, he was violent and a bit wild. The HT and teacher said openly that he had SN and they were doing what they could and would get a 121 in ASAP which they did. They also talked to the other children about how they needed to be understanding and cautious and how to recognise signs he was about to lash out etc etc. It was an awful time actually, but there was some basic communication that there was a problem and this is what the kids should do to deal with it. Even now there are incidents with this other boy and the kids and parents know we must tread carefully and show some compassion.

In Xs case there is nothing like this. The teacher and HT are telling me and the kids to just shush and not make a fuss please, and I think that is just pretending that there is no problem.

Perhaps the teacher is all over this and decided it was tit for tat, that is very plausible. But why not say that to the kids and to Ms mum last night? Instead she told them to stop telling tales and suggested to Ms mum that the kids had made it up.

I never thought of it from Xs side, and maybe he does feel he himself is being bullied and left out and constantly nagged. I can well believe that is true since he moved onto this table. But I do balk a bit at suggestions that what is needed is for the others to be nicer and more sympathetic. What is needed is for this kid to stop messing about surely?

There is no denying that my 2 kids are basically quite nerdy and serious, that is how they are. Yes of course they are naughty sometimes but they are also quite pompous and have a sense of right and wrong and ds in particular struggles to understand why other kids are sily and daft for no apparent reason. He has no time for boys like X and never will. But I don't see why they should have to deal with this IN THE CLASSROOM. They are there to do their work and listen and learn, and X is impeding that.

Also encouraging resilience, which is a great asset for all is best started now. My dcs are so empowered as their default setting in any situation is what can I do about it. It's cheesy, ds goes 'yeah I know, trim my slippers' whenever he tells me about stuff!

I am shocked that the school disclosed that another child had SN. This is a massive breach of that child's privacy. And I sincerely hope that the school refuses to discuss X with you.

You are, of course, fully entitled to talk about your own children with their teacher. But any discussion of another child is completely wrong.

I think you've thought of him- your opening post is very 'big picture' and not ranty about the child, just the situation is general.
If your dcs are nerdy it's far better that they learn to stay the same alongside distractions, rather than join in or give up.
Is it likely that they'll all be together next year? I know no year great to have a distracting time, but this is probably the best time in their education. Settled at school, but no sats or other exams.
You sound like a lovely mum.

I understand your frustration, DS had problems with a boy like X in his class last year. Teachers attitude to DS was to 'just ignore him', which was appropriate ,imo, with relatively minor things like tapping/humming/being distracting, but not with hitting.

I understood that X had to be moved around the classroom as it wasn't fair for one child or table to have this all the time but DS was beginning to hate school because of this.

Its a difficult situation.