Please or to access all these features

Add post

Watch this thread

Save thread

Start a new thread

Flip thread

Hide thread

My feed

Active Unanswered threads

Getting started FAQ's

Unanswered threads Acronyms Talk guidelines

Hide shortcut buttons

Talk

Primary education

Join our Primary Education forum to discuss starting school and helping your child get the most out of it.

Flip

1 2 3

Original poster

Reading question - swapping letters

68 replies

noramum · 14/08/2012 11:37

My DD just finished Reception and we are doing the Summer Reading Challenge.

We already noticed that she would swap the starting letter of the word. So instead of "For" she would say "Ofr" or "No" and "On" etc. Sometimes, she will even start the word with the third or fourth letter in the word. We normally ask her "Look again, what is the first letter" and she will correct herself.

We mentioned it a couple of times in the reading diary but the TA/teacher just signed it off. The only comment was during the Spring term that it was a normal development. But we think it gets actually worse, not better. We didn't have a parent evening in the Summer term but there was nothing in her school report, only that she should concentrate on the high frequency words and the ones you just can't pronounce phonetically.

So, is this a normal process for a girl of just 5?

OP posts:

Are your children’s vaccines up to date?

Set a reminder

LizzieVereker · 14/08/2012 11:43

Not an expert but both my children did this and then gradually stopped, so wouldn't worry too much. Do you find she tends to try and find the vowel and put that first?

IndigoBell · 14/08/2012 11:49

I think it can be something they grow out of, or it can be a symptom of convergence insufficiency. (Trouble focussing both eyes on the same point)

It's totally possible her left eye is looking at one letter while her right eye is looking at another.

DeWe · 14/08/2012 11:58

Mine have all done that. If you think about it a (eg) fork is still a fork if it's upside down, backwards, in the mirror...

I found it helpful to show then some words that have the same letters and different words.
eg. "saw" "was"; "bolt" "blot"; "on" "no"; "she" "he's"; "ant" "tan" "Nat"

My ds (also just finished reception) is fairly fluent, but he forgets with "off" and "for", all the others he's pretty good on now, but for some reason he has a problem with that, but it seemed ages that he just did the letters in the order he found easiest.

amidaiwish · 14/08/2012 13:35

DD2 did that too, she still does sometimes (just finished yr1), often mistakes saw for was and vice versa. I wouldn't worry.

Original poster

noramum · 14/08/2012 13:42

Thanks.

Lizzie: not really, as No and On are also read the wrong way round. But worth checking.

Indigo: thanks, I knew there is a condition so I will keep it in mind if it is getting worse.

Our school does the first parent evening before October half-term, I hope her new teacher will know by then if she is still in the norm or not.

I remember that my mum complained I was overlooking letters/words until fairly late. Maybe it is just in the family....

OP posts:

amidaiwish · 14/08/2012 13:51

i think it is common with kids who tend to memorise words rather than phonetically sound and blend. DD2 was like this and is now a great reader. I would do as the school said and focus on the non phonetic words (the red words if you use Read Write Inc). If she gets to learn by sight all those words you need to learn by sight, then she'll make good sense of most of the sentence then focus on phonetically sounding the other words when she's nearly there. I am pretty sure that's how DD2 managed it.

maizieD · 14/08/2012 19:04

You may find that it helps to cover the words which she persistently reads from the 'middle' or the 'end' with a small piece of card and reveal it grapheme (sound spelling) by grapheme, getting her to sound it out and blend it.

To me, this 'fault' would be a sign that children haven't consistently been taught to read/sound out and blend words from left to right (or, that the teaching hasn't been reinforced to automaticity). Teaching words as 'wholes' just encourages this tendency as children don't know which strategy they are meant to use and it is confusing for them.

If I had a pound for the number of times mrz or I have said on here that there is no such thing as a non-phonetic word I would be quite rich by now. The 'red words' should be approached in exactly the same way as any other word; sounded out and blended from L to R. They are only 'red' because they contain an unusual (or not yet taught) letter/sound correspondence. It has nothing to do with their 'phonetic' qualities...

I know everyone is being nice and reassuring; saying that their dcs did this too but they are fine now, but not all children correct the fault so it's best to nip it in the bud asap.

mrz · 14/08/2012 20:18

ditto maizie beat me to it.

MuddlingMackem · 14/08/2012 20:18

Interesting. DD is coming up 6 and has also just finished reception.

I've noticed that she is still confusing b/d, p/q and reversing some letters. Even when I indicate that she's wrong she will be adamant that what she has read backwards is correct and can take some convincing that she has read it wrong. She too will sometimes start reading a word from the second letter so that I will have to pull her back and tell her to look carefully. She still often omits a letter from a word or puts one in where it shouldn't be!

I've been wondering if I should look on here for some of the exercises people have posted for improving tracking to work with her before school starts back. It's also noticeable that she makes more mistakes when she's tired, so I do wonder just how much effort it's taking her to do them correctly the rest of the time. On the plus side, she does seem to have got over that hump from reading being a chore to being fun, but doing her daily reading really can still be a chore for me at times, she can be so damned awkward and stubborn.

I know that with her it is most definitely not a lack of phonics and blending, the school are crazy hot on the phonics and she is very good at the blending.

IndigoBell · 14/08/2012 20:22

MuddlingMackem - This is the eye tracking program.

MuddlingMackem · 14/08/2012 20:47

Thanks Indigo. Looks like we might have to invest in that as her improvement seems to have plateaued.

amidaiwish · 14/08/2012 21:42

Really MaizieD, DD1 (8) is an amazing reader and uses "big" words in her speech which she clearly hasn't heard read aloud.
E.g. The country Chile she pronounced Ch-isle
Chandelier, ch-an-delly-er
I could think of loads.

maizieD · 14/08/2012 23:46

Really MaizieD, DD1 (8) is an amazing reader and uses "big" words in her speech which she clearly hasn't heard read aloud.

Probably because they are nice, interesting words that she has to concentrate on to read But the 'litttle' words are just as important...I expect she can self correct when she gets a word wrong and it doesn't make sense in context but some children just can't/don't; which obviously will have the potential for what they read not to make any sense.

It's a judgement call as to whether to insist on the words being read correctly or to let the odd error go. I certainly wouldn't write off persistent misreadings as 'normal development' and hope it will get better.

IndigoBell · 15/08/2012 06:11

Amidaiwish - I don't get your point. Ch-isle isn't a valid or a phonetic pronunciation of Chile.

Why on earth do you think it's a good thing that she's seen some letters on the page she doesn't know, and made up what they might sound like?

That's not reading. Nor is it increasing her vocab.

It's guessing. Guessing wrongly.,

mrz · 15/08/2012 08:13

Really MaizieD, DD1 (8) is an amazing reader and uses "big" words in her speech which she clearly hasn't heard read aloud.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by using big words in her speech... is this general conversation or reading?

If it is reading then I agree with Indigo. Reading Chile as Ch-isle is cute but wrong.
Reading Chandelier as Ch an delly er is very wrong for an eight year old as it suggests she doesn't know that can represent the sound /sh/.

vesela · 15/08/2012 09:10

Surely the point is more that the word chandelier isn't yet in her vocabulary, so she didn't know whether to go for ch- or sh- and plumped for -ch. Or she may know what a chandelier is, but just not associate it with this word chandelier.

mrz · 15/08/2012 09:23

Then I would expect the person listening to her read to ask if she knows what other sound can represents (tell her if she doesn't know) and explain what a chandelier is if she doesn't know. I wouldn't expect them to let it go.

vesela · 15/08/2012 09:33

Sure, when she's being listened to, but I took amidai's post to mean that these were things she was coming up with after reading by herself.

Original poster

noramum · 15/08/2012 09:45

MaizieD and Mrz: I don't want to start a discussion about Phonics. While I think it is a good way to teach reading, I also believe there are words you don't pronounce correct if you do it the phonetically way.

If English would be totally phonetic, why do I have to explain to DD that the "ea" in sea and eat is different to head.

Or why time can't be pronounced like Tim? Or why there are silent letters in "chocolate"? They learn the "u" but then come across a word like butcher.

As English is not my mother tongue (I am German) I see more and more the enormous amount of exceptions to the rules the English language has since helping my daughter learning to read.

OP posts:

vesela · 15/08/2012 10:06

Noramum - it's still phonetic, it just means that there are more correspondences (if that's the right word) - more choices as to which letter/group of letters represents which sounds. It helps to think of it in terms of making the right choice, rather than in terms of exceptions.

It's a continuum where languages are concerned, not a case of "languages A B and C are regular, language D isn't." In Czech, there are very few such choices to be made - one of the few cases where the same sound can be represented by different letters is y/i and so they spend a huuuuge amount of time teaching that particular one to children.

I have been teaching my DD to read in English, and she has picked up reading in Czech without having yet been taught, because the process - blending - is the same.

mrz · 15/08/2012 10:11

noramum I understand English isn't your first language and admit we do have a complex spelling system but it is phonetic.

mrz · 15/08/2012 10:12

I wasn't sure what Amidaiwish meant vesela which is why I asked the question.

IndigoBell · 15/08/2012 10:14

NoraMum - Here's an English Alphabetic Code which explains how phonics works in English

Original poster

noramum · 15/08/2012 10:15

Mrz: I heard from various teachers that it is not the case. When we had the reading meeting our HT clearly stated that phonics is the way to teach but some words will have to be learned by memorising. And I found this is def. the case by most children I met.

But I think we don't need another thread about phonics.

I agree with you about reading in a different language. We don't teach DD to read in German but if she does it on her own account she does it - like she was taught in English - by blending. But as German is - how I call it - more phonetic than English she actually finds it easier.....

OP posts:

CecilyP · 15/08/2012 10:18

Amidaiwish - I don't get your point. Ch-isle isn't a valid or a phonetic pronunciation of Chile.

I think what Amidaiwish meant is that her DD read Chile to rhyme with isle, which would be the most obvious pronunciation, albeit wrong.

Flip

1 2 3

Swipe left for the next trending thread