Reading question - swapping letters

[noramum]

My DD just finished Reception and we are doing the Summer Reading Challenge.

We already noticed that she would swap the starting letter of the word. So instead of "For" she would say "Ofr" or "No" and "On" etc. Sometimes, she will even start the word with the third or fourth letter in the word. We normally ask her "Look again, what is the first letter" and she will correct herself.

We mentioned it a couple of times in the reading diary but the TA/teacher just signed it off. The only comment was during the Spring term that it was a normal development. But we think it gets actually worse, not better. We didn't have a parent evening in the Summer term but there was nothing in her school report, only that she should concentrate on the high frequency words and the ones you just can't pronounce phonetically.

So, is this a normal process for a girl of just 5?

All I have ever claimed is that if English graphemes had just one pronunciation, as they do in all other European languages, English-speaking children would learn to read faster; and if all sounds had merely one spelling they would to learn to write faster. I have never claimed anything else. What other claims do u think I have made?

I have also examined in detail and established how many pronunciations English graphemes can have and in how many different ways English sounds can be spelt, but that was simply factual research which anyone can check.

Oh masha! (I hope you crossed your fingers when you typed that!)

We have already established your knowledge of graphemes isn't terribly secure masha.

Everyone has agreed English spelling is complex but it isn't the huge barrier to learning you claim it to be and if all children are taught the idiosyncrasies of our language then there will be fewer children experiencing reading and spelling issues later.

What other claims do u think I have made?

There would be the claim you made last month that the English spelling system is responsible for the 670 four year olds excluded from school in 2010-11... or that last summer's riots were down to the difficulties in learning to read due to the spelling system or any of the other world ills you hold English spelling responsible for.

I have never claimed that the ESS is responsible for those things. Other people keep pointing out the various disadvantages of poor literacy, and several other researchers have established that learning to read and write English takes much longer than in 12 other European languages. I have merely established and pointed out how much more irregular than other alphabetically written languages English is.

Since u doubt my knowledge of English graphemes, I will show u once again what I know and u can then point out any gaps in my knowledge.

The most often used English graphemes are the following 69:
A, a-e, ay (cat; plate, play) air (hair); ar (car); au, -aw (sauce, saw);

b (bed);
C, ck, k (c/at/ot/ut, crab/ clap, kite/kept, comic, pick, pocket, seek, risk)
Ch, -tch (chat, catch); d (dog);

E (end); ee, --y (eel, funny), er (herb),
F, G, H (fish, garden, house);

I, i-e, -y (ink, bite, by);
J, -dge, -ge (jug, bridge, oblige); L, M, N, ng (lips, man, nose, ring)

O, wa, qua, (pot, want, quarrel), O-e, -o, ol (bone, so; old),
Oi, -oy (coin, toy), Oo (food, good),

Or, -ore, war, quar (order, more, wart, quarter),
Ou, -ow (out, now); P, Qu, R (pin, quick, run),
S, -ce, -cy (sun, face, emergency);

Sh, -tion, -tious, -cial, -cian (shop, station, cautious, facial, musician),

T, -te (tap, delicate), Th (this thing),

U, u-e, -ue (up, cube, cue)
V, -ve, -v- (van, have, river ? no doubling),
W, -x, Y (window, fix, yes);
Z, -se (zip, wise),
-si-, -su- (vision, treasure)

• 8 endings: doable, fatal, single, ordinary, flatten, presence, present, other and 2 prefixes: decide, invite and the consonant doubling rule (bitter - biter)

But most of the above have unpredictable alternatives which are responsible for making learning to write English more time-consuming than in other languages:
a: cat ? plait, meringue
a-e: plate ? wait, weight, straight, great, vein, reign, table
dahlia, champagne, fete
-ay: play ? they, weigh, ballet, cafe, matinee
air: air ? care, bear, aerial, their, there, questionnaire
ar: car ? are + (Southern Engl. bath)
au: sauce ? caught, bought, always, tall, crawl
-aw: saw ? (in UK with the same sound in: or, four, more)

ca/o/u: cat, cot, cut ? character, kangaroo, queue
cr/cl: crab/ clot ? chrome, chlorine
-c: lilac ? stomach, anorak
-ck: neck ? cheque, rec

ch: chest ? cello
-tch: clutch ? much

d: dad ? blonde

e: end ? head, any, said, wednesday, friend, leisure,
leopard, bury
er: her ? turn, bird, learn, word, journey
ee: eel ? eat, even, ceiling, field, police, people,
me, key, ski, debris, quay
--y: jolly ? trolley, movie, corgi

f: fish ? photo, stuff, rough
g: garden ? ghastly, guard
h: house ? who

i: ink ? mystery, pretty, sieve, women, busy, build
i-e: bite ? might, style, mild, kind, eider, height, climb
island indict sign
-y: my ? high, pie, rye, buy, i, eye

j: jelly, jig ? gentle, ginger;
-dg: fidget ? digit

k: kite/ kept ? chemistry
-k: seek ? unique,
-sk: risk ? disc, mosque

l: lips ? llama
m: mum ? dumb, autumn
n: nose ? knot, gone, gnome, mnemonic

o: on ? cough, sausage;
want ? wont; quarrel ? quod
o-e: mole ? bowl, roll, soul; old ? mould
boast, most, goes, mauve
-oe: toe ? go, dough, sew, cocoa, pharaoh, oh, depot
oi: oil ? oyster

-oy: toy ? buoy
oo: food ? rude, shrewd, move, group, fruit, truth, tomb,
blue, do, shoe, through, manoeuvre
good ? would, put, woman, courier
or: order ? board, court; wart, quart ? worn, quorn
-ore: more ? soar, door, four, war, swore, abhor
ou: out ? town
-ow: now ? plough

qu: quick ? acquire, choir
r: rug ? rhubarb, write

s: sun ? centre, scene
-ce: face ? case; fancy ? fantasy

sh: shop ? chute, sure, moustache, liquorice
-tion: ignition ? mission, pension, suspicion, fashion
-tious: ambitious ? delicious, luscious;

-cial: facial ? spatial

t: tap, pet ? pterodactyl, two, debt
-te: delicate ? democrat

u: up ? front, some, couple, blood
u-e: cute ? you, newt, neutral, suit, beauty, tuesday, nuclear
-ue: cue ? few, view, menu

-ve: have ? spiv
-v-: river ? chivvy

w: window ? which
x: fix ? accept, except, exhibit
y: yak ? use

z: zip ? xylophone
-se: rose ? froze

-su-: measure ? azure

Endings and prefixes:
-able: loveable ? credible
-al: vertical ? novel, anvil, petrol
-ary: ordinary ? machinery, inventory, century, carpentry
-en: fasten ? abandon, truncheon, orphan, goblin, certain
-ence: absence ? balance; absent ? pleasant
-er: father ? author, armour, nectar, centre, injure, quota
butcher ? picture

de-: decide ? divide
in-: indulge ? endure
Consonant doubling:
merry (regular) ? very(missing) ? serrated(surplus)

In addition to the above, in complete contrast to other alphabetically written languages, the pronunciation of 69 English letters and letter strings is not reliable either:
a: and ? apron, any, father
a-e: came ? camel
ai: wait ? said, plait
al: always ? algebra
-all: tall - shall
are: care - are
au: autumn - laugh, mauve
-ate: to deliberate - a deliberate act
ay: stays - says

cc: success - soccer
ce: centre - celtic
ch: chop ?chorus, choir, chute
cqu: acquire - lacquer 19

e: end ? English
-e: he - the
ea: mean - meant, break
ear: ear ? early, heart, bear
-ee: tree - matinee
e-e: even ? seven, fete
ei: veil - ceiling, eider, their, leisure
eigh: weight - height
eo: people - leopard, leotard
ere: here ? there, were
-et: tablet - chalet
eau: beauty ? beau

• ew: few - sew
• ey: they - monkey

ge: gem - get
gi: ginger - girl
gy: gym ? gynaecologist
ho: house - hour
i: wind ? wind down ski hi-fi

• ine: define ?engine, machine

ie: field - friend, sieve imb: limb ? climb ign: signature - sign mn: amnesia - mnemonic

ost: lost - post
-o: go - do
oa: road - broad
o-e: bone ? done, gone
-oes: toes ? does, shoes
-oll: roll - doll
omb: tombola - bomb, comb, tomb
oo: boot - foot, brooch
-ot: despot - depot
ou: sound - soup, couple
ough: bough - rough, through, trough, though
ought: bought - drought
oul: should - shoulder, mould
our: sour - four, journey
ow: how - low

qu: queen ? bouquet
s: sun ? sure
sc: scent - luscious, molusc
-se: rose - dose
ss: possible - possession
th: this - thing
-ture: picture - mature
u: cup ? push
ui: build ? fruit, ruin
wa: was ? wag
wh: what - who
wo: won - woman, women, womb
wor: word ? worn
x: box - xylophone, anxious

• y-: type - typical
• -y: daddy - apply

z: zip ? azure

arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! please learn phonics masha

I have never claimed that the ESS is responsible for those things.

so that wasn't you on the TES opinion forum?

so that wasn't you on the TES opinion forum?

Oh no There's not two of them, is there?

There couldn't be! ...could there? [worried]

Mrz
arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! please learn phonics masha

It's difficult to discuss anything with someone who responds with grunts (or silly emoticons). I know plenty about phonics teaching too, but my main interest has been to identify the irregularities which make learning to read and write slower than other languages, and to show the who learning burden, rather than just what children in KS1 need to learn, which is merely the relatively easy part.

And although u may be putting a different interpretation on what I have said on tes forums, I have invariably merely pointed out how much more irregular than other alphabetically written languages English spelling is, and that this is heavily responsible for slow progress and contributes to high levels of failure.

...to show the whole learning burden

I know plenty about phonics teaching too
then why do you continue to post those ridiculous lists?

You mean I misunderstood when you claimed on the TES forum that mumsnet had banned you?

Since u doubt my knowledge of English graphemes, I will show u once again what I know and u can then point out any gaps in my knowledge.

Well, for starters, masha, a grapheme is the letter or letters which represent a single phoneme (if you don't believe me you can check with all these dictionary definitions HERE Knowing this, your first list is an absolute muddle. wa, qua, ol, war, quar, cy, tion, -tious, -cial, -cian ans su are not graphemes. I can just about see what your rationale is for including examples of how the grapheme is used in these word parts, but even then, why repeat the same grapheme in tious & tion, cial and cian? Why include word endings and a couple of prefixes, which are made up of two or more perfectly decodable graphemes?

You then go in to say that most of the above have unpredictable alternatives. Most of the above what? One would assume that you mean 'graphemes' as that is what your first list is meant to be about, but no, it seems that you are now talking about phonemes a: cat ? plait, meringue.

At which stage I give up trying to analyse your nonsense, but, unfortunately, less knowledgeable people would be as thoroughly confused as you intend them to be and agree with you that there is something weird about 'phonics'. Well done, masha...

As a corrective there are some excellently laid out charts of the phonemes of English with the graphemes commonly used to represent them on the Phonics International web site. You really should study them, masha.

I know plenty about phonics teaching too,

My first good laugh of the day!

Maizie
wa, qua, ol, war, quar, cy, tion, -tious, -cial, -cian ans su are not graphemes. I can just about see what your rationale is for including examples of how the grapheme is used in these word parts, but even then, why repeat the same grapheme in tious & tion, cial and cian?
I think you would not be asking this if u had ever taught spelling beyond a basic level, when pupils ask u when do u spell the /sh/ sound in the ending of longer words and when . These give u the main patterns - and exceptions too them.
-tion: ignition ? mission, pension, suspicion, fashion
-tious: ambitious ? delicious, luscious;
-cial: facial ? spatial

After and , the dominant spelling for the short /o/ sound is , but again with exceptions which have to be memorised:
want ? wont; quarrel ? quod

Masha THEY ARE NOT GRAPHEMES that is a fact no matter what level you are teaching spelling. My Y2 class know that /sh/ is spelt in action and in version and in social and in machine and in sugar and in tissue (these are some of the graphemes for the sound /sh/)

Your list isn't a list of graphemes!

Someone earlier in the thread asked if you had taught young children (outside your family) to read and write did I miss your reply?

I think you would not be asking this if u had ever taught spelling beyond a basic level,

Oh, FFS, masha