To Kumon or not to Kumon. That is the question.

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DD is starting school in September. Below are the Pros and Cons I have been debating recently.

1. She is bright, so should be okay without extra help in school
2. It is too early to put her through this
3. Kumon is expensive and time consuming.

The Pros

1. It may give her that bit of extra confidence at school
2. Earlier is better as then she can grow with that system
3. Its not so expensive as to be prohibitive.

I really cant decide either way. Please someone help?

I did go and try it; still wouldn't recommendd it - infant especially since going to 2-3 of their sessions and seeing how it works.

mrz, what extra support does a Kumon child need? Is it that the class rooms work by the averages so that if yoour child is ahead of the rest of the class by doing Kumon, teachers have to manage them? I really do not understand your point here. Please can you elaborate or give examples? I will also look up Singapore maths. I do not know what that is about. Also, Kumon is also about English. Why are we concentrating on maths alone?

IME Kumon won't make your child top of the class.
Kumon can be good for quick fire mental maths.

But for proper application of maths t doesn't really help - esp if it involves working things out on paper, explaining how you've done it, using given methods of calculation - and doing it in a real life situation rather than a worksheet question.

TBH though for me it was more about questioning what actually teaching my DD was going to get from Kumon and from who? If I was paying £50 a month I wanted more than a bunch of sixth form students with no qualifications with just one older woman (also with no teaching qualifications) supervising it all.

From my own experience (having worked there) the extra help would be for actually understanding mathematical concepts - it matters not a jot if a child can remember that 3x7=21 if they don't understand how that represents itself in real life. If a child is pushed into memorising such things too early they may actually skip that vital stage which they could have picked up by, say, messing around with smarties or something, and it might be hard to learn the concept after the fact if that makes sense

A child who has done Kumon is usually happy when faced with pages of questions in a format they recognise but has no idea where to start with anything "different".
Often they have to be taken back to basics and taught concepts from scratch to develop understanding and that applies equally to maths and English.

You might be interested on this review from an ex Kumon tutor
www.mathsinsider.com/8-things-to-hate-about-kumon-a-review/
posted on another MN thread

earlier posts i completely missed re. children in singapore and india. I am really against that type of rote learning. where EVERYTHING is learnt that way. So theoretically, children are good but cannot apply it practically. However, 10 mins a day surely will not harm? times table learnt early is always a good thing surely?

Hulababy, I undersytand Kumon is not the answer to all math questions. All I am looking for is some sort of math confidence and increase in concentration span for my dd. re. 6th formers teaching, I dont mind. I would if I was paying for tuition. I agree with your point. Some may expect proper math teachers for this cost!

mrz thank you for that link. Interesting reading.

I had this very conversation about young children learning maths with a teacher who used to work on the National Maths Strategy team. Their (extremely professional, educated) view was that Kumon can be useful to children who "just don't get it." If they can't see in their heads like most can, that 10 + 5 = 15 and 15 + 15 = 30, 13 + 8 = 21, then they can learn the answers by using a mass repetition technique like Kumon. But only if they can't do it any other way. Otherwise children will learn the right answers without ever "seeing" the answer.

I can see that by sending a child to Kumon from a very young age, you might succeed in them "knowing" the answers which could add to short term esteem, but could provide a barrier to that child being able to work out the answers for him/herself, so detrimental in the long term. I hope I've explained that right.

fuzzpig thanks for that. Understand the issue now.

I seem to be the exception in having good things to say about Kumon.

A few months into Year 1 at our state primary it became obvious that academically my DC was falling behind a friend's DC who was at a prep school. So we started DC on Kumon Maths and only finished at the end of Year 6.

I often sit back and smugly smile to myself when I read threads about how parents can't get their children to concentrate and focus and how things deteriorate into a shouting match between parent and child when the parent tries to get the DC to do homework or to revise for tests. My DC got into this routine at the age of 5.5 and it has prepared him well for an academic future.

Kumon isn't for everyone. That is why there are so many negative testimonials. It helped my DC secure a place at a highly selective school so it obviously worked for us.

Juniper. I'm sorry but your views on music are totally rubbish. Firstly music is not about learning an instrument, yes you can play instruments but you never actually learn one. It is great fun at the start, never repetitive and certainly not irritating. if you are frustrated at not having the capability for fingers to move quickly. Simply play slower. Lots of practice isn't really the case, but effective practise is important. Your view is the one that usually makes people give up.

A tiger mother friend of mine had her daughter do it and concluded that it was expensive and boring and if anything switched the child off maths/literacy.

Do you say "cooooooo-mon" or "come on" with "come" pronounced "cum" ? I'm never sure.

Also K'Nex. Is it "conn-ex" or "kay-nex"?

exactly posh, but they will never get. people who use kumon do not suddenly disappear from school and then turn up one day for Mrz and her cohorts to start their unlearning process. They attend kumon alongside school and in most cases the teachers do not know that they are receiving extra help.
The reason I had the confidence to stop kumon was that DH and I had already decided to not even attempt the state sector with DS2 because of all this dumb them down and such strong opposition to hard work. He starts pivate in sept and DS1 is happily joining him.

Myself and DH schooled in Africa and have never heard of the gospel of EYS or whatever it is called, but DH is a doctor and I an accountant so we managed to do well. I like to think outside the box and do not live according to popular opinion.

At my DS1 info evening at the start of Y2 a parent asked the teacher what extra help he can give to his DS to help him understand simple division and she said if he is mathematically inclined he will get it regardless but if he isn't there is nothing you can do. What sort of defeatist mentality is that?

I like to think outside the box and do not live according to popular opinion.
I've never heard Kumon described as thinking outside the box ... it's the very thing it stiffles!

It is thinking outside the box of 'learning through play'. Much as you had love it to be he is anything but stifled. He isn't afraid to learn now. He can count, can identify numbers and is most of all proud that he can. and I pray my paths never cross teachers like you as I think you and a lot of parents are part of the problem why the state school is going down hill in this country.

Sorry iyatoda if you can't see that Kumon doesn't encourage a child to think then I'm very sorry for you.

Save your sympathy I don't need it or your imaginary status.

One of dd.'s friends did kumon up to y6. Did v well up to y7/8 through learning by rote and accuracy. Now floundering in y 10 because she hasn't got the skills to solve problems and is not used to being able to work out how to tackle problems. Not usd to finding it hard either. For music I meant music groups/drama clubs etc.

We did Kumon for a little bit. DD needed to catch up on some reading as we were overseas and I didn't know what I was doing! :)

My experience of Kumon is that is got us into the routine of doing something each day and I think gave us all an idea of what daily discipline was like but there are 101 better ways to help your child.

Check out WH Smith. So many work books in there and you'll get a feel for what is being taught in schools. We've used maths whizz from time to time and found this more useful than Kumon. Once you've got an idea you can then google for fun activities.

Just being around your child, helping them become independent, trips to farm, zoos, meeting friends will give your little one so much. There are also lots of games to help that are more fun.

Trust me all the stuff you teach kids sinks in when they are good and ready so pushing can sometimes not be worth the extra time. Certainly with number 2 I waited until he was ready. What has helped him get started was practising writing his letters, writing out his numbers in a grid, being able to use scissors, some sounds. I definitely wouldn't rush the reading next time unless it was synthetic phonic books as look/say books worked against him in my opinion.

I am a mathematician. My children have not gone to Kumon. They will not go to Kumon. Not ever. If they fall behind and need extra tuition (and I don't have the patience) I'll send them to a maths teacher. If they get ahead and need extra stretching (and I if I couldn't do it myself) I'd send them to a maths teacher.

Kumon delivers a fast, accurate and rigid approach to arithmetic. Children who struggle with maths, and who haven't grasped the basics sometimes benefit from Kumon as they don't have to understand why 8x9 is 6x12, they just remember both are 72. For functional numeracy, Kumon may be the answer for the lowest end of the ability spectrum.

I don't "tutor" my children at home, or make them do worksheets or computer games. I do talk to them all the time about mathematical concepts and I answer their questions. Occasionally I set them a challenge, or we have a game that we all enjoy. (Currently the toast game is in vogue chez Quip: every morning at breakfast, the DCs will choose a number and see if it's possible to cut their toast into that number of squares. Every piece has to be a perfect square and all the squares have to fit together with no gaps, into a square. It's a good game for developing mathematical thinking, but they wouldn't do it if it wasn't funny :)) As a result, they entered school 1 or 2 years ahead in maths, and have continued at this level, and love maths at school.

See if you've got a children's music centre near you. Violin and Cello can be learned by reception age children and does stretch them (and may help with maths in a roundabout way).

No I am more sorry for you and the people who have elevated you to the demi god status that you seem to enjoy

What a disproportionately venemous response - just look at all the advice from other posters who have explained to you patiently and in detail why Kumon doesn't work, not just mrz. Shame on you for your sniping, iyatoda, it's totally uncalled for and reflects very badly on you.

Music like Maths is about patterns IMVHO
and children who recognise the patterns are those who find maths easy also IMVHO