To Kumon or not to Kumon. That is the question.

[megabored]

DD is starting school in September. Below are the Pros and Cons I have been debating recently.

1. She is bright, so should be okay without extra help in school
2. It is too early to put her through this
3. Kumon is expensive and time consuming.

The Pros

1. It may give her that bit of extra confidence at school
2. Earlier is better as then she can grow with that system
3. Its not so expensive as to be prohibitive.

I really cant decide either way. Please someone help?

I have just looked at the Kumon English programme. Oh dear. Far better to read lots and lots and lots of books.

@megabored Sorry I shouldn't have said private tuition - that is certainly not what Kumon are about. It is endless worksheets which have to be checked by parents and the instructors are not teachers in the main - a Kumon centre can be run by almost anyone I believe. From what I gather Kumon are very good at teaching the times table by repetition. Sometimes that is all some kids need I am sure but for others, this does not address problems that really need to be addressed by a qualified teacher. From your comment I assume you are a working mum. Yes, I was lucky to have the first 5 years off with my dd and I feel very grateful about that. I chose to give up a lot financially to be able to do this but this was my choice and I applaud other mums who manage to juggle work and motherhood in the early years. I understand from your comments that you want someone else to motivate your child and that is why you are considering Kumon. I have been working full time for the past 5 years and my dd is 10 going on 14. That is why I chose to send her to Kip McGrath when I noticed there was a problem as I just couldn't do it myself. When it comes to reading, we have a shared love of books and she and I will read the same book and then we will have a get together to discuss the book. However when it comes to maths, I am lost and I rely on Kip McGrath to help with that and she is coming along so well. Why don't you give Kumon a try for a few weeks and see how you both feel? I still feel it would be better until after she has started school but mums always know best! You could also see if there is a Kip McGrath centre near you. I was checking out their website to add the link and noticed they do a Get Ready for School package! www.kipmcgrath.co.uk

Kumon is a franchise which anyone can "buy into" without any "educational" knowledge.
It is convenient but in the main preys on parents desire to do the best for their child

Having looked at their franchise page I would be rather doubtful-I would imagine they vary a lot depending on who is running them and how many assistants they are willing to employ.

When I worked there a lovely girl (about 10) was really stuck on long division. So stuck she was in tears when she kept getting questions wrong :( I was told that she just had to keep repeating the worksheets. Because that's what you do at kumon. Keep doing it and doing it until the scores go up. I wasn't supposed to actually help her learn how to do it, or explain the concepts behind it, because kumon is about practising the processes, you just do it over and over.

Well, (excuse the language) fuck that. I sat her down and went right back to basics. Genuine lightbulb moment sort of thing. She was so much happier. I left soon after though, as it really showed me what kumon was about, and what it wasn't about, and I didn't like what I saw.

mummy, I am on maternity leave till early next year so have some time to spend with DD. after that it will be full speed all the way so I was looking for a tool that tames her, makes her independent, increases her concentration as a start. She is very bright but really lazy and argumentative (from being bright). In 3 months we have gone from not knowing the alphabets to reading 3 letter and some 4 letter words. Even teaching this I debated a lot as a lot of mums told me not to teach her and And that i will confuse her at school but I could not not answer all the questions being asked very night at story time. Currently she is into drawing and tries to write the objects name on the paper and spell on her own. If I tell her no, that's now how you write a e (capital e written with say 8 horizontal lines), we get into debates so this formal learning and someone else also overseeing may help me. We have tried books that you can get from tesco and
M&s that are like worksheets but she refuses to do anything like that. Which again is fine. She is desperate to learn more but won't do so properly from me. So I considered kumon (as I am new to parenthood and the mums in my area do not talk openly about what they are doing with their children re reading, numbers etcetc) as that is the only thing I have heard about from friends. We already do the measuring, the counting stairs, reading number plates, playing snakes and ladders etc. there is more to this but I hope this kind of answers some of the questions you may have.

Added to this mix is the experience I had at school, hence the lack of confidence in our schooling system.

Nothing wrong with a child learning to read before they start school. But if it is taught more formally then ideally you need to make sure you are doing it all using phonics - and using the pure sounds for each letter/grapheme.

Why not buy one of the Kumon worksheet books from Amazon and have a look for yourself. They are pretty much the same as what you will be given to do there and at home.

To be honest she sounds like a child that would-be bored rigid and stifled by Kumon.

I think you should carry on with what you're doing, then review the situation after she!s been at school for 6 months, then get a proper private tutor if you think it's needed.

I have taught her both phonics and what I learnt at school, ie the letter C makes the sound ccccc. So she is fluent with both. We do science too in our spare time. She is like a sponge and I am just trying to channel that enthusiasm and focus that energy. The laziness now. Despite knowing all this, she will refuse to tell say her nursery that she already knows this. So for example, at parent evening we were told, by her key worker, your daughter is doing great, she knows 2 or 3 letters from the alphabet. I was surprised at that as I know she knows all of them. So I asked the key worker to test her in front of me and she was able to read 3 letter words the key worker pointed out and all the letters of the alphabet. At school, if this continues, whether it stems from lack of confidence or laziness her potential will not be realised. We have been working very closely with the nursery to push her or give her a nudge now and again so that she does not get bored. Daily practice with give her a routine that she thrives in. It is not necessarily about kumon, it is just a means to an end.

OK. So even more not Kumon! It really is just boring routine and for reinforcing stuff children aren't secure in. So very wrong for your dd- she need her horizons expanding, not shutting down!

Oh, and she's not lazy- she's 4!

@megabored LOL! This could be me talking about my dd! She sounds like a very intelligent little girl with her own mind and free thinking. I sometimes despaired at the attitude I could get from my dd when she was as young as 3 (and I don't mean bad behaviour!). She has always had her own mind and questions everything. She is very intelligent and well read and I marvel in her knowledge sometimes. OK she had a problem with maths but a term at Kip McGrath has caught her up and she is going into P6 on a par with her colleagues in maths and way ahead (in my opinion) in English. It sounds to me as if your dd is ready for school - not Kumon. Let her teacher do the job in P1 - they know what they are doing! Participate in her homework and praise her efforts and show her how much her good work means to you. Your dd will love to come home and show you what she has learned and if I were you, I would encourage her and praise her efforts. It is your choice but I would let her have a bit if school learning before you consider other options.

mummy the laziness - another example.
The key worker showed me the wonderful scribbling that she did in her books every day at nursery. Again a surprises. At home, she draws aliens and dolls and policemen and butterflies. At nursery I was getting drawing with just scratches on them. Again, I told the key worker, she can form such and such letters so far, draw teddes etc. showed the key worker what we did at home. Completely different child. From the next day, the nursery started reading with her and drawing 'better' pictures!
She was being lazy so that she did not have to do it, not concentrate. I am
Mathematically inclined myself so its not that i cant teach her. I am concerned she will do the same at school and not be pushed.

:) She sounds like my DD ... who despite her elder brother being a keen pre-school reader and mathematician, was adamant that such things were'for school, mummy' and despite loving books and stories and board games refused to countenance 'learning stuff' before starting school.

Minx - she was a fluent reader by the end of term 1. I would swear that she DID know it all really, just wasn't willing to show it except in 'the proper place'.

DD remains more 'school shaped' and conventional, and her maths is by no means as 'spiky' as DS's is, but in general their levels at the same ages have been pretty similar and in the top 1 or 2 in their classes at school. Free thinkingness about learning age 3-4 is definitely not a path to 'not realising potential' in school!

I am concerned that the teachers will not realise what she is capable of and just let her plod along. I will miss the opportunity to make that difference if I don't do something now.

megabored How about trusting that the teachers are professionals and know their job?

she's not lazy- she's 4!

Quite! And I admit that is something I have struggled to come to terms with regarding my own DD. I was really, really geeky and studious as a child. I would not play (actually it's more that I didn't know how), I preferred to read or find mathematical patterns etc. I used to steal my mum's old Reasoning test books (TBH I wouldn't have liked Kumon because of its repetitive nature)

Turns out I have Aspergers. DD I am pretty sure is NT and while she is getting on ok at school, she is by no means the studious type. She plays imaginative games and skips around happily. She has lots of friends. She is so different to me and TBH I sometimes have to remind myself to accept that she is not going to be a genius. That sounds horrible. I do not mean I want her to be some successful prodigy so I can show her off, I am not interested in that, what I mean is that I wish I could see her enjoy, no, crave knowledge like I did. She is alien to me in many ways. But she is NORMAL! And more to the point, she is happy, so very happy, more than I ever have been or will be. She is learning to love learning in school thanks to the wonderful EYFS and while I think I will always feel a little bit sad that she might not be as academic as me, I am incredibly thankful that she's got a much better chance of a rounded full life than I had.

I should add that the Aspergers isn't the only reason I missed out on playing etc - it was also down to my parents. They were (and still are) pushy and actually did just want a genius child to boast about. I grew up believing that Academics are Everything because that was what they wanted from me. I am still left with the feeling they wouldn't have loved me if I wasn't clever. I limit their time with DD (things like reading, I don't want them to listen to her try and read because they just criticise the fact that she isn't as fluent at 4 as I was at 3 - I don't think they are deliberately nasty, they are just so narrow-minded) and have had to force myself not to run to them with every achievement, craving approval, because it damages me and will damage my little girl too.

Sorry, am rambling now - and I'm not accusing anyone here of being like my parents, just explaining why I feel so strongly about this, even though it creates a lot of inner battles.

She is 4 years old and growing up quickly- just enjoy spending time with her and stop worrying about it!

You sound like you have a happy, bouncy, joyful child Fuzzpig.
A tip from a lazy Mum.. nought wrong with a little bit of Cbeebies!
My just 3 year old loves Numtums and Alphablocks [amongst other lovely Cbeebies stuff]. TV can be educational!
He loves spotting door numbers as we walk to town at the moment and bellowing out the numbers.

I am sorry meg aboard you sound very anxious about your child please let her be a little girl and play. Don't keep calling her lazy because she does not want to do school work at four.

Sunflowers you are right cbeebies can be educational in a fun way where children do not realise they are learning.

Fuzz pig your child sounds happy and normal the important thing to me would be your child has lots of friends and knows how to mix. Reading and writing can always be learnt later social skills can't .

"I am concerned that the teachers will not realise what she is capable of and just let her plod along. I will miss the opportunity to make that difference if I don't do something now."

You honestly won't "miss the opportunity"! She's only little and you're aware and in tune with her. Stop worrying and have fun!

And be really careful you don't actually do more harm then good with too much formal learning too young....it's as easy to turn them off with too much as too little.

seeker I agree. I am therefore very aware of that. Hence this thread. Anyway! Let's
see how it goes!

fuzzpig forgive ur parents and move on. They tried to do what they thought was best for you. I am sure you will make mistakes too. No parent is perfect.

That's a fair assumption to what I wrote here mega but the pushiness is the least of my worries with them compared to everything else they did (which I've written about a lot on MN but it isn't relevant here) - forgiveness is not likely. I was just writing it as an example of what can go wrong if academics are a higher priority than a child's welfare