To Kumon or not to Kumon. That is the question.

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DD is starting school in September. Below are the Pros and Cons I have been debating recently.

1. She is bright, so should be okay without extra help in school
2. It is too early to put her through this
3. Kumon is expensive and time consuming.

The Pros

1. It may give her that bit of extra confidence at school
2. Earlier is better as then she can grow with that system
3. Its not so expensive as to be prohibitive.

I really cant decide either way. Please someone help?

I would say have more faith in the teachers in the school she will attend to recognise her abilities, and challenge and motivate her. I sent ds to the school nursery and didn't mention he could read and write and manipulate three figure numbers because I figured if it was a problem the teachers would let me know. It took three days before they called me in to ask for him to be seen by the ed psych as his abilities were outside of what they were used to. Even so he had a great time they took the ed psych's advice and he was challenged and motivated alongside his peers even if he was working a good way ahead of them.

Oh, she has a great time at nursery and with her friends etc. so, if I share this with the school, my concern over her abilities being challenged, (in a non-direct ) way, will I come across as a pushy parent who wants her child to go beyond her abilities or do you think the teachers will understand where I am coming from?

I certainly wouldn't "over-share" whilst she's in Reception. Totally unnecessary. They might nod and smile, but secretly they'll think you're nuts.

When we were looking for a school we found teachers who were lovely and encouraging about our practical and proactive interest in our daughter's reading. And we found others who were quite defensive and rude about it, making it clear that they thought teaching was for teachers and parents should settle for the odd update. If you can you should investigate what your daughter's school's policy is in regard to parental inclusion. It might be excellent, some schools are. If it's dire and unfortunately some schools are dire too, then don't be discouraged from contributing to your child's education, but just do it separately from the school.

But the most 'lovely and encouraging' of teachers are quite likely to become pissed off if the OP goes in straight from the off and tells them she doesn't think they going to realise what her dd's capable of and that she believes she needs pushing in Reception because she's lazy.

OP you have given an example of your DD's laziness in that she only produces scribbles at nursery. And then you give examples of the wonderful drawings she produces at home, which suggests she is anything but lazy - if you want to see it in those terms. It could be that in nursery that there are 101 other things that she wants to try, that doesn't leave much time for detailed drawing. Your DD sounds as if she is doing fine, but I agree with clam that I wouldn't overshare - take an interest in what DD is doing; she will want to come home and share all the exciting things she is doing with you.

learn I agree with your approach. As others have said, it will just brand me and possibly by child.

Very true Cecily, my DD never came home from preschool with all the big paintings and crafts like the other children. When I volunteered there I noticed she didn't even do much of the construction/puzzles etc.

I asked the staff if this was a problem, and they said absolutely not! She was spending time outside running around (extra good for us as we don't have a proper garden) and getting exercise, and making friends, and learning about the real world by doing pretend play. She was learning in the way you'd expect of a 3 year old.

At her school I overhear some parents actually grumbling at the DCs when they come out of school and respond to the "what did you do today" question with "I played" :( it seems to then turn into an interrogation about whether they read or wrote etc. Weird and sad.

fuzzpig you seem to have a black and white view on things. It's okay to ask of they did writing or reading isn't it?! I always ask my dd what she did, who did she play with, check her writing practice at nursery, what story did they read today. Gosh, I would not want to be judged by you.

Yes of course it's ok to ask FGS. The parents I mentioned were grumbling as in saying things like "what, you only played?" and "why didn't you learn anything?" as in, they might see no value in normal play. Parents complaining that their children aren't being made to sit down and write, and that all that playing is a "waste of time". THAT is sad.

It might be nice if everybody, some teachers included, could chill out a little bit more about some parents having a keen interest in their children's abilities in the three rs, after all that's what we're aiming for. It's a bit confusing to enthuse about teaching these things and then listen to people saying no, no, no you shouldn't teach your children to read, write and add up! Of course you should if you want to.

I wouldn't advise teaching toddlers hang-gliding and archery.

That would actually make more sense to me as these are things LOs will be unlikely to get the opportunity to learn in primary school.

I think it's really good to teach your children stuff, and take an active interest in what they are learning, and build on it. But there's a world of difference between that, and regarding 'play' as being lazy/a waste of time when it is actually incredibly important for all types of learning. I think teachers have every right to be sad about parents doing the latter TBH.

My DD does archery (it's made of foam though) :o

(BTW I'm not implying that anyone here is like that, just that those parents do exist, I see plenty - not just my own!)

learn I totally agree. I deliberated for months on teaching my dd something as simple as the alphabet as other parents I spoke to scared me so much. The last thing I want is my dd not to have a childhood. At the same time, just because it is education, I do not want to not teach her. I have seen parents deny they teach at home to avoid coming across as pushy. It is crazy.

"It might be nice if everybody, some teachers included, could chill out a little bit more about some parents having a keen interest in their children's abilities in the three rs, after all that's what we're aiming for. It's a bit confusing to enthuse about teaching these things and then listen to people saying no, no, no you shouldn't teach your children to read, write and add up! Of course you should if you want to."

But this thread is about whether to send a 4 year old to Kumon, fgs! Which is a bit more than that.

clam I think our conversation has evolved somewhat.

Good grief I would never deny teaching DD something, that is sad. The key is being child led isn't it. Our school is very insistent that if our DCs don't want to do something (like practising writing at home), then stop. It is counterproductive to force them as even if they learn faster it will put them off in the long run.

Say with DD, she was interested in phonics for a while before school, but when it came to blending, she just didn't get it and didn't want to, so we stopped. However recently they've been doing tally charts at school so on a day trip at half term we did our own (flag spotting), as she loved it, and then I showed her how to turn the tally into a graph, because she sees me deal with graphs and wanted to do it, writing the numbers and colouring the squares in etc. She said she wants to do another one about types of birds in our garden.

I say again, why does it have to be either/or with some parents? Why can't a child be pushed academically and still do 'kid' stuff? The two doesn't have to be mutually exclusive.

DS went to the pre school which had a qualified teacher come in every day and she would do reading and counting for about an hour and this was from the age of 3 onwards. The rest of the day they did 'kid' stuff like painting & drawing. And come picking up time, in the car we would 'interrogate' DCs as to what they had for tea? what did they play and, yes, we even showed a 'weird and sad' interest in what they read and wrote that day.

As I said above, we turned to Kumon when we discovered that the state primary wasn't going to push DC. DC entered Year R ahead of his peers in reading and writing, thanks to the efforts of the pre school, and by Year 1 the boy was just plain bored. Hence Kumon.

There are studies and reports out there and they have been discussed here many times on MN, which goes on about how educationally we are lagging behind the Tiger economies. So it perplexes me that many parents continue to think that we can carry on being a Let Children Be Children society that looks down on pesky pushy foreigners.

I am NOT suggesting tying a child to a desk and forcing them to do hours and hours of studying but surely there is a middle ground?

It's the lack of child-ledness (that's a word, right? :o) that I don't like about Kumon. It is so... stale. There's none of the wonderful discovery you get when you discover new patterns in things all by yourself. Seeing that happen on a child's face is amazing, just like the first time a baby drops a toy off their high chair and realises they made that noise happen all by themselves and then do it a million bloody times and maths especially is a subject that is full of those moments right up to A level and beyond (IMO as a maths geek). For example DD realising by herself that she could apply our flag-counting/displaying method to something else that she loves (goldfinches etc). Kumon cannot possibly hope to provide that.

"It's the lack of child-ledness (that's a word, right? grin) that I don't like about Kumon"

My point is that it is not an either/or situation. On top of Kumon we did other 'fun but educational' stuff. Kumon was just one aspect of the program.

Traditionally we were taught to chant the times table over and over and over again. I don't understand why when you put it down on a worksheet and give the child a pen the whole thing becomes the work of Satan :)

I think you're misunderstanding what I meant about the other school parents, of course it's not bad to ask what DCs did at school or if they did reading or whatever, surely most parents do that, it would be sad if they didn't take an interest. Taking interest is in the middle ground. But there's a massive difference between that and actually saying to their children that 'just playing' isn't good enough or that anything but 'proper schoolwork' is a waste of time.

I think that there is a risk to some - not all! - children that if you do expensive worksheet overkill, they will then lose the initiative and excitement that maths can bring, and then not actually be able to get the best out of any other 'fun but educational' stuff because they are so used to the worksheet method. I guess much of that rests on how it is approached at home.

Arithmetic is of course very useful especially if you're quick at it but what Kumon neglects to tell you is that you can be brilliant at it but still be crap at maths in the longer term!

I accept that there are parents like that but I like to think that they are in the minority.