To Kumon or not to Kumon. That is the question.

[megabored]

DD is starting school in September. Below are the Pros and Cons I have been debating recently.

1. She is bright, so should be okay without extra help in school
2. It is too early to put her through this
3. Kumon is expensive and time consuming.

The Pros

1. It may give her that bit of extra confidence at school
2. Earlier is better as then she can grow with that system
3. Its not so expensive as to be prohibitive.

I really cant decide either way. Please someone help?

"tethersend, not from my understanding. I don't understand how they could be. So for example, if I just do the arty farty stuff, as I tactfully describe it, and start my
Dd at school at 7, she at a British school in year R1, all other things being the same, it is going to be enough to produce a
High achieving rounded individual? and some more"

You clearly stated that arty farty stuff was inadequate for achievement at international level: "Counting beans or doing arty farty things are clearly not enough if you want to stay competitive at an International level." Since your DD is four, I can only assume that you were referring to four year olds. You erroneously asserted that four year olds counting beans and arty farty things hampered achievement to the extent that a country could not compete at an international level. Finland's achievement proves this to be wrong.

There are many, many factors which make Finland's education system what it is; but do not assume that counting beads and arty farty stuff hamper achievement. They do not.

"Maybe it works for Finland but its certainly not working for the UK which was my point."

Was it? Sorry, was responding to the OP, your point had completely passed me by. So, to be clear, you are saying that an education system which we do not use in the UK does not work in the UK? Have I got that right?

I agree with teacherwith2kids-all very sensible reasons.
I don't know any able mathematicians who bothered with Kumon either-they are far more likely, as mrz says, to have spent their time playing dominoes, card games and chess with grandpa and anyone who had the time.
Parents like worksheets because they can sit them down, get on with other things and feel they are doing something. I was the sort of DC who would have loved some worksheets and a paper full of ticks but I can't say it would have improved my understanding-just speeded me up a bit.

seeker as someone else said, any apology from pooshtun is not worth waiting for. I think her posts say enough about her, frankly.

"Parents like worksheets because they can sit them down, get on with other things and feel they are doing something. I was the sort of DC who would have loved some worksheets and a paper full of ticks but I can't say it would have improved my understanding-just speeded me up a bit.." - maybe thats it.

quickhide: "I am preparing her for school in Sept by making sure she can eat nicely, use the toilet on her own, put her clothes on herself, take turns etc- those are the skills essential for starting reception imo. That and a love of learning because as far as she is concerned it is fun and not forced."

Probably the most sensible and relevant post on the whole thread. Our Foundation teachers are pulling their hair out about these basic life-skills that an increasingly large proportion of children enter school unable to cope with. And this is in a "leafy, middle-class" catchment school.

I wrong to an inner city comp in the 80's and was not taught grammar nor times tables. Spent a lot of time doing maths investigations rather than arithmetic. My mental arithmetic is still awful and DP ( computer programmer) marvels at my inability to do long division on paper.

Funny thing was that when I started to do statistics as part if under snd post grad research ( social science) I found I could easily grasp the concepts - I know what statistic I need to help me explain my results, I understand how to use them, means and medians, ordinal and other scales, statistical significance etc
And I think much of that is to do with the work on concepts I did at school. My DZc seem to have a balance of mental arithmetic and Maths and it works well.

Perhaps op you should check out how Maths is taught at school - but you seem wedded to Kumon, your defensive tone is what makes me think this.

Bloody phone: ' I went..'

It can be an advantage to speed up but I am sure that you can buy workbooks from WH Smith that are similar and much cheaper.

The fact that Pooshtun has had a lot of posts removed tells you a lot-since only last week she was sent posting guidelines and so should know the score.

about I am not wedding to anything but my DH. Specially not a worksheet churning money making machine but that would be nice on second thoughts.

But I am not going to say on here that, I now conclude the ONLY thing I am prepared to do is teach my DD to count eggs and house numbers and that, that should be enough'. If it makes it easier for you to classify my parenting style in a box, please go ahead. I've understood enough to realise there is a little truth in all your posts. What suits my DD is for me to decide. It may be worksheets today and arty farty stuff tomorrow. Who knows. I will have to try and see.

We use Big Maths (and Little Big Maths) www.andrelleducation.co.uk/BMFreebies/BMBT%20Learn%20Its%20Tests.zip

in reception they begin with answering 7 simple addition questions to answer in 20 seconds

all materials are free and teach instant recall of addition facts

www.andrelleducation.co.uk/BMFreebies/BMBTCLICTests.zip
the tests practise writing numerals, counting, adding, fractions,more and less, odd and even before moving onto number sentences and multiplication .......

mrz thank you for that link. Looks great. I also found this today.

www.conquermaths.com/

you might also like www.newoscott.bham.sch.uk/Maths+Zone/Number+Club

honestly you can do it yourself

The thing is, megabored, that 'counting eggs and house numbers' meant that DS, before he started school, could:

• Count up as far as he felt like (and appreciate that numbers went on forever, even if he stopped counting at 1,245 because it was tea time)
• Read numbers up to 1 million
• Add 1,2 and 3 digit numbers together and subtract them from one another (so could e.g. do 672 - 385 mentally)
• Divide numbers up to about 80 (biggest house number in the village) by 2, and explain which house numbers were odd and which ones were even
• Read scales, both numbered and partially numbered.
• Could multiply 1 digit numbers by 2, 4 (number of people in family), 5, 10 and 11 (because 11 is fun) and share larger numbers of items out equally into 2 and 4, understanding the concept of a remainder and simple fractions like half and a quarter.
• Form the same numbver in lots of different ways (so asked to find e.g. 20 cups for a party, he knew that he could have 4 big and 10 medium and 6 small, or 10 big and 10 small, or whatever)
• Read prices in £p and present correct money for it in coins.
• Play pretty much any board game involving dice and numbers in any form.

I don't think that he would have gained that through Kumon.... 'Only counting eggs and house numbers' can get you a LONG way in maths!

Some interesting stuff about the international comparison tables that governments love so much:

In fact the figures are entirely incorrect, and have their roots in a deliberately misleading DfE press release. A proper review of the OECD Programme of International Student Assessment (as conducted by the National Foundation for Education Research) shows that standards in reading, maths and science are holding up well; you can only 'create' the 7th-to-25th position trend in the tables for reading if you a) ignore the fact that 12 of the 25 countries are not different by a statistically significant margin; b) that two countries are new to the table; c) two of the countries higher than the UK have the same score but are higher because they start with an earlier letter of the alphabet; d) that the OECD report gives an explicit warning that the tables should not be used for trend assessment, because earlier studies had sample sizes which make this invalid

Lies, damned lies, and yes - statistics. Used to beat up an entire profession with until people believe that teachers are not worthy of respect and that the state education system in the UK produces cohorts consisting of 100% morons.

I refuse to disrespect my children in this way, especially when I see how much more, and more difficult, stuff they are doing than I did at their age in 'the good old days' (I am 44).

Good post, pointythings.

pointythings

Now if Kumo taught basic statistics and how to put uncertainty ranges on graphs, it might be worth paying for!

bunting I was just waiting for a post like yours. Haha.

I am also very keen to make sure my dd has a great education and give her the opportunities to do whatever she wants to do but I don't think I even considered a tutor before she started school. Unless a mum was aware of learning difficulties (and you say your child is bright) I would at least give her some time to settle in at school and learn the same curriculum as classmates. I always interacted and talked to my dd from a very early age. We loved reading books together and acting out the words and played lots of fun counting games together at every opportunity. I was very lucky to be able to stay at home for the first 5 years and I took immense pleasure in teaching her whilst having lots of fun. When she started school, I backed off a bit but made sure I went over her homework and gave lots of praise for her efforts. She now shares my love of reading and devours books way beyond her age. At age 10 she is learning to play two musical instruments (of her own choice) and is writing her own lyrics to songs for fun. (proud mummy!) However, I noticed a few years ago that maths was causing problems for her and homework time was becoming stressful. She just didn't seem to have any confidence and parent's night confirmed that. So I decided to get her a tutor. We tried Explore Learning (don't consider it!) and we also phoned the local Kumon Centre but to be honest having spoken to other mums I decided I wanted a qualified teacher to actually teach her and follow the Scottish curriculum. I enrolled her at the local Kip McGrath Education Centre and she has come on so much this past year she has moved up to the top group in maths. Even her teacher commented on her progress last month. She loves going and her confidence has soared. I think every mum is different and what works for some children won't for others. However, at age 5, before a child has started school, I would have thought that private tuition was a tad excessive?

mummy Private tuition? If you have read my post, I am totally against that at this age. From my understading Kumon is not private tuition. The appeal of Kumon is not having to trawl for worksheets, having someone motivate child on a weekly basis and from the sheets I have seen, it is no different to her doing the pages on the Cbeebies magazine (Now I will get accused of siding with Kumon and put into the pro-Kumon box. ) The worry is that I will create a nerd or pressurise her so much that she will be off math and English for life. (in short)

I understand what you are saying and it is a very wise parenting style. However, as you say, you were lucky that you were at home for 5 years with her.

I think all under fives should be playing and learning life skills like table manners and learning through play not sat at a desk with a worksheet they will got all this when they are older.

Reading back through this thread sounds like some of you are still at school all bitching with each other and demanding apologies.

"chandons last post sums it up for me. Counting beans or doing arty farty things are clearly not enough if you want to stay competitive at an International level. "
ha ha ha. How wrong you are. I have a Y1 child on 3a in maths after arty farty bean counting. Never touched a worksheet in our lives. We do, however, play bizz buzz boom bang on long car journeys, with him, cook with him (weighing ingredients, doubling up quantities etc) and answer all his questions. And when he was a toddler, we counted beans. And ducks. And houses...

I think small children should have the opportunity to enjoy life in a faintly pointless manner, in all honesty. (Actually I think that about adults too.)

Quip that's exactly what learning through play is. I expect your children are enjoying themselves without realising they are learning.

Er...given that Quip has said above that she is a mathematician, I slightly suspect she does know that

I have a child whose maths has been falling behind a bit. Personally I'm going to see how a move to a secondary school which has dedicated maths teachers and specialises in maths will benefit her. I may at that point consider a maths teacher in addition. Kumon, not so much.

Five year olds, definitely not.