Do I need to consider private schooling or keep hassling the school?

[finefatmama]

This is a rather lengthy one so please bear with me.

DS2 5yrs attends reception in an oversubscribed catholic school (DH's preference not mine) but I don't think the school is working well for him.

Since starting reception, his teacher has complaining about his refusal to spend 80% of his time playing. He sneaks back indoors to turn on the interactive whiteboard or computer thus refusing to follow instructions. He's a september baby and bigger than most of the kids so he plays roughly with them (he also does martial arts) etc. He eventually got the class reward cuddly toy because he didn't have to be told off over the course of the day.

He now thinks of himself as a naughty kid but claims he can't help it (I don't believe that). During parents evenings, she usually has odd feedback ('he can read the whole word but can't sound out the individual parts when I ask him to break it down', 'you haven't taught him x' - often said smugly, 'when I left the class to go for my lunch he scattered the contents of my filing cabinet which I forgot to lock', 'he can count to hundred but most kids learn this by rote at home and don't know what these numbers mean so that doesn't mean he's brilliant', 'no he can't be extended because I have 30 kids to deal with and some don't even know the alphabet which is a priority', 'I know he's bored but I can't give him more work as it HAS to be 80% play for all our children', 'He has poor social skills which is why he won't go out and play' - very smug look). He once had a supply teacher who allowed him to work on the whiteboard and rewarded him for doing a correct sum which resulted in a negative number but according to him, his regular teacher would have told him off.

We have been working with him at home and he has just started year 3 maths and is currently reading Through the Looking Glass and Horrid Henry. We were ok with doing the extra work at home and trying to convince him that the teacher probably didn't mean that he's no good.

Most of the supervision is done by dad who works 9.30am -2.30pm about a mile from home. Fortunately and unfortunately following events at work, he's been promoted to a full time role in London and his current role is no more. We are now very concerned about leaving him to the mercy of the school. They have't been v helpful and have hinted that they are oversubscribed anyway and will have some kids waiting to take his place. our local authority has a shortage of primary school places already so a transfer is unlikely. If we keep fighting the school, we may end up making enemies instead of gaining allies.

We are now wondering if we should tighten our belts and pay for a good independent school where he would be taught at the right level, have access to sports activities, music lessons (dad currently takes him to flute lessons as the school dont allow for under 8s to learn instruments) etc. Or am I just romanticinsing the private school idea?
What other course of actions can anyone advise that we take to ensure a good education? We moved here to get DS1 into a very good special school and I'm not sure if we can keep the special school place if we move to a nearby LEA.

I do not have a particular advice OP but kind of relate with your situation. I have 4yo DS who probably has some behavioural traits (being bright, especially with numbers (typical), but quite antisocial and impulsive).

We are working hard to improve his behaviour first - I will worry about his academic achievement later.

We are also in London and had a choice of an outstanding academic catholic school or a good public school. We have chosen to go to a regular school because we felt they could help with the behaviour more.
Surprisingly, our outstanding catholic primary has a very low number of SEN children (1 or 2 according to Dept of Education website!) and I get the feeling that either the child does well under pressure or he gets pressurized out of the school (indirectly, of course). This is only I have heard around and yet to prove, but I have a gut feeling about it and glad that after your story I am extremely glad that I didn't apply for the outstanding catholic.

I think your school is wrong for your child and as everyone else says, he needs to learn social schools and conforming to the rules first. It does not mean something is wrong with him - but this school does not seem helping. I would ask around about schools with a good academic and SEN balance (state, not private) and put him on a waiting list.
You can always tutor him for a secondary or grammar, you have plenty of time for that. But it is more important to lay a good background for learning, first.

My mum is a teacher and she says that if a child is unhappy, he will not benefit from no matter outstanding school.

Geek alert - square root of -2 is 1.414 x i, where i represents the 'imaginary' number which is the square root of -1. -1 has no 'real number' square roots, so mathematicians use i to represent the 'imaginary' (but useful) number which is the square root of -1.

Square root of 8 is, similarly, 2.83 x i.

[Goes to put on 'nerd' cap]

(Should have written -8, sorry)

It's very difficult to make judgements from someone's paraphraasing of what's been said, and I think we're all guilty of doing so on MN.

For instance: "he's bigger than the other kids so he plays roughly with them" means a totally different thing to "he's bigger than other kids and plays roughly with them"

The martial art teacher should have taught the children that the skills they learn are only for use in school or at home. When ds did judo it was made out to be a special secret, that they only practised at their lessons. (I've never heard of anyone doing martial arts at 5, in the same way as I've never heard of a child take flute lessons without permanent front teeth (something to do with the embouchure).

(Also should have said that, to be completely accurate, for an equation stating that x squared = -8, then there are two solutions: -2.83i and 2.83i, so a pedant would say that the square root of -8 could be -2.83i or 2.83i, as either of those numbers squared would give you -8)

Back to marking Year 3 Maths. As you were.

Excellent pedantry teacher. I'm all in favour of motivated children having their natural curiosity about big and small numbers gratified, but if a 5 year old knew about complex numbers then that's the point at which I'd declare they needed to get out more .

Good luck OP - am going through very similar issues with HFA DS, I don't have the answers, but I think you've had a lot of good advice abd wish you well.

I staggered on to this thread by accident as my dc are preschool so the only experience I have of the education system is my own school years. A few things occurred to me which, no doubt, go against the grain but I will plough on regardless :

• You have had some harsh comments IMO. Harsh because people who think you are too involved have clearly never had to deal with an autistic son and another with suspected aspergers or other social/communication disorder. Just even the suspicion of that being a possibility can fill every waking hour with worry, never mind actually having the diagnosis and all that you have to put into life that others don't have a clue about. I am guessing here - but assuming that you didn't have notes coming home from school, that your son was happy there and you had glowing comments at parents evening, then you would not have bothered investigating the teaching aids/levels being used in the classroom? It sounds to me like you are a worried parent trying to do your best - but because the tutoring and lessons and talk of private school fall into the "tiger mother" or "helicopter parent" stereotype, you are going to get a bashing. (BTW if you do think you might be a wee bit tiger mother it might be worth letting up a little as I was a bit by the list of extra activities although your subsequent posts explain the circumstances....)

• None of the posters seem to want to question the teacher's ability. Yes, I get it teachers get a bashing all the time and it must be rough, but by the same token you can be a primary school teacher and only have a maths gsce grade c. Statistically there must also be a full range of good, bad and indifferent teachers). If your son is genuinely gifted in maths and it is his passion (and he is 5, has nothing else to concern him and can feed his obsession to an advanced level for his age) it is possible that he can be correcting the teacher. (My friend's son has managed to memorise all the dinosaurs and their ages from a set of books he was given at Christmas and corrected his teacher as she had named them as 2 creatures from different periods so they did not exist at the same time so could not have been stood together! So it is best not to underestimate 5 year olds!). Children also have the unerring ability to spot a weakness and exploit it. If the teacher is only 2-3 years into the job I do feel sorry for her as this must be hard to take - however she is the teacher and it seems ridiculous to be scolding a child for pointing out factual inaccuracies if he is correct. I was older but had a similar experience with a maths teacher who was teaching us basic calculus (badly). My friend and I sat at the back of the class bored and chatting, so she would pick on us. I am sure she did it because she was out of her depth. She was certainly surprised when we both got A's but we were teaching ourselves the stuff, it wasn't like we needed her there! Anyway if your DS is on the end of something similar it is horrible and I have every sympathy for him.

• On the other hand he might well be disruptive, badly behaved or unruly. I worry about my DS's ability to do what he is told when the time comes. How long does it normally take for kids to adjust to this sort of thing? What could you do to help him settle in? And also use this to show the school that you are trying to be helpful? I was wondering if it was possible that the tutoring was making things worse? If he tends to be near the top of the class in his interest subjects and he gets tutoring, he will not be learning new things and so will be more likely to correct the teacher and be disruptive. Could you switch the tutoring for some other activity like a social skills group that would provide an alternative outlet for him, but avoid him getting even further ahead of the others?

• You say the school is catholic and popular. This often seems to mean interested and engaged parents breathing down the teacher's neck. If the class does contain a very wide range of abilities it could well be that the teacher is stretched and under pressure from a number of different families. Let's face it the testing systems seem to be about bringing up the bottom end rather than stretching the top (as it is in most areas of life/professional regulation etc before teachers start jumping on me!). Assuming that he will get a new teacher next year, you presumably have a relatively small amount of time until he moves on. While this might be why you are investigating a private option, it is probably worth pressing for an ed-psych assessment (when do gifted and talented programmes kick in?) and some sort of assessment to see whether he wouldn't be better jumping up one year? Did you get any formal report during the autism and siblings study? Could you apply for MENSA now to prove he is unsual to the school? If he is one of the oldest in his class, would he have been borderline for entry the previous year?

• As others have said, private school is probably not a great option. They have good results because they don't have to take everyone and they can ask pupils to leave at very short notice and without any reason. If you think he is Aspergers you would probably be best to stay in the state sector - whether it is at this school is another question however. What are your options for other schools?

Anyway, that's my random tuppance-worth.
I hope you find something that works for you soon!

tricot39 with respect I don't think you can have read the whole thread because there is a lot of criticism of the teacher

Agree, the teacher has received a lot of criticism along the way, but since "tell the head to sack her immediately and bring in a new one" is not (unfortunately perhaps) a feasible suggestion the advice has had to focus on the OP's behaviour and choices.

The trouble is that we don't really know what has been going on. The OP has very kindly suggested that her son is a bit naughty some times. But we don't know if the teacher was absent-mindedly describing a row ending in negative numbers as ending in zero. Maybe the teacher was actually right and the boy was naughty and needed to be sent to the deputy head. And maybe that had nothing to do with infinity and fractions.

There can be some pretty good provision for chidlren who are academically advanced in the very selective top day schools in the private sector. They are used to dealing with slightly more unusual children although if he is just plain naughty that is going to be a problem anywhere. Might he be something like hyper active? Does he do what he's told at home? have you got a really good academic prep school near you?

flexibex I know its a bit random as away from the OP but I know lots of 5 year olds that do martial arts, at DSs group there are many young children from age 4 and when I was at the same group 20 years ago there were lots of 4/5 year olds. Its actually great for bright children in particular as there is a lot of technical stuff involved so good memory required, difficult japenese names to remember and a lot of discipline.

ha mrsz!
i fear my typing is a bit slow. the tone has got more sympathetic to op as it has gone along.

Ok accountants - I just haven't known any instructors around here take children under 6 - at school or in private classes.

I used to help out with a karate class back in the day. I'm pretty sure we'd have allowed children from four or five upwards to train with their parents. But not take part in gradings or sparring. I guess it would depend on what you want your child to do in the class. Kata, the karate patterns, is quite hard to learn. You'd probably need to be upwards of six or seven to do it well enough to pass a grading test. And as for sparring, well, what do you want the kids to achieve?

If you look at the 6th post on this thread (mine) you will see I said the teacher doesn't know what she's talking about
having said that I think the OP needs to look at why her son acts the way he does and not to focus on his maths and reading

Thank goodness for your post teacher. I was itching!!!! Now can relax

mrz while websites for small children state helpfully but inaccurately that infinity is not a number, try wolfram alpha or this excellent book. A large chunk of my postgrad study was in transfinite set theory. I agree that the idea, as presented to a child, of division by infinity is unhelpful, but you can call the smallest infinity (countable infinity) simply infinity and convey your meaning appropriately. And it is a number.

For context, in this definition, the number zero is defined to be the set containing phi, the empty set. one is the set containing zero, and phi. Two is the set containing one and the contents of one. And so on ad infinitum.

My first instinct is to move him. You are not happy with the school, so do it sooner than later.

Find a good independent, tell them your concerns and work with them. You will feel much happier.

Our dd was at a state school, she knew a lot really when she started, reception kept very rigidly to EYFS and whilst my dd liked the playing bit, swas desperate to do more. We left it to Yr1 because we felt it would be more structured learning and she would love it, the teacher was also very good.

However, it was too late, by the middle of Yr1, she was coasting along, not doing a great deal, having totally switched off and lost interest. We moved her at the start of Yr2 and our tenacious, enthusiastic child returned. DD always came across as a bit precocious (only child, related better to adults), but and although I may get slated for this, the children in her class now, are more like her - that sounds terrible, but everything about the school is right. In fact her Yr1 teacher said she was destined for that environment and the head said she would 'thrive' there. Both were right - pity they couldn't have been so right about her Reception year!

Our school has G&T (no dd is not!), it also has SEN provision, dd had extra help with her maths, as she was sorely behind, she is now working at a secure Level 3 not incredible, but if you knew where she was at the start of Yr2! In fact we were starting to wonder if she had learning difficulties!

Our dd's social skills were and are extremely good, one of the things the teacher commented to us at our first Parents Evening, was how sensible she was.

Think carefully about waiting for Yr1, look at some schools, tell them your concerns, you will be so much happier and relaxed. I have gone from being a Tiger Mum - because I was so anxious about her education, to being so laid back, I am almost horizontal - Simply put, I trust the school now.

Interesting Quipbecause I was taught many years ago admittedly (and only A level Pure maths not degree) that infinity has no numerical value so I'd be really grateful if you could educate me to what number infinity actually is

Flexybex: my DCs did taekwondo in a proper tots class from reception, and later Kungfu where there was also a proper class (though loathsomely named Lil Dragons) for that age too. It is something that is usually excellent for self-discipline, and if (despite this training) he remains rough with other children (to the extent that it is half way through the summer term before he gets the class bear as reward for first day without misbehaviour), then this reinforces significantly to me that there are major behavioural difficulties.

Our karate club also take children from age 5. My DC's all started at about that age. We originally started with the first as my health visitor felt it would benefit balance and co-ordination (dyspraxic) and they have all enjoyed it. We do specific child gradings (under 11) which are at a lower level and thus can be accessed by younger children.

The emphasis is very much on behaviour, and following instructions as well as fitness and actual karate at this age and we regularly remind them that it must not be practised at school.

It certainly is strange that he cannot apply this training to the classroom. OP do you watch his out of school activities, so do you know how he behaves there or is it just reported to you?

Regarding the bear, said bear was given as reward for hard work in class and he said to me that he would never get it because he didnt have to work hard and he knew his numbers and alphabets. I told his teacher and she said find something to give it to him for and made this up.

He comes home with certificates, rewards and stickers from the other classes. His preschool didnt report behaviour issues during his time there. I also ask for feedback regularly from them and they think quite highly of him. DH watches him sometimes and reports that he's compliant. His tutor thinks he's on the quiet side and could do with being a bit more chatty and assertive. His behaviour issues appear to be confined to one setting which is why I'm sceptical. He is also very well behaved at home when he's not wearing us down with questions and observations ("Leave mum alone and go watch some tv", "I can't do that because my daddy said I shouldn't watch it till saturday", "It's ok, you can watch tv on this occassion and I'll tell daddy I told you to", "But daddy wont be happy. He was very sure when he told me. Maybe we should call him first").

I asked for a log of behaviour issues to be kept at school after cabinetgate.

Maybe he is overwhelmed in a classroom setting? A reception classroom is a very busy and bright situation, lots to stimulate all senses, lots going on, noise, hustle and bustle etc. Fantastic for many children but not for all - if he is hypersensitive to noise for example it could be a nightmare and maybe that is why he acts out.

He's bored! Your son is bored, OP! He needs more structure to his school day. I know this because DS1 is 5yo and is bored in nursery (he starts school in August but we have been encouraged to get Ed Psychology involved because 'he won't listen and do as he's asked to do' on several occasions by nursery staff, amongst other things).

You can't keep a bright boy from 'acting up' so to speak, he's trying to alert staff he needs more to do. The only way to do this is to get rummaging in a filing cabinet or knock stuff down to get attention!