Low Aspirations

[IndigoBell]

Bloody hell I'm cross.

Why do teachers have such low aspirations?

How dare DDs teacher be happy with her attainment. Happy - as in rushed out of school to tell me how well she'd done in her latest test.

On track to almost get a C at GCSEs - and he's happy :(

I hate school. Every bit of it.

There is no expectation that children will do well - only that they'll make a set amount of progress each year.

Children are always told they're brilliant and wonderful - they're never told they're not doing well and they're actually going to have to work hard if they want to achieve something.

No expectations that a child will do well :(

The culture here sucks.

School thinks it's better to have a failing happy child - then a child who works hard :(

But because they make school so fun and engaging she refuses to let me take her out and teach her at home :(

Again IMO you are spot on Bowerbird: British educational culture is all about identifying the "bright" pupils and developing them, and consigning the rest to sub-standard opportunities. Just read any thread on TES pupils are high, middle and low ability (that's the way our system is designed) and there isn't a lot that will change about that, it's generally thought it's encoded in DNA like eye or hair colour. I have heard well thought of educational speakers and teachers alluding to this time and time again.

Of course later developers can flourish but the odds are rather stacked against them as others have said.

I am told if you approach GCSEs strategically it is apparently possible to get an A in the Maths paper (for example) by attempting and doing well at the easier questions only. It's worth getting the papers and breaking things down to see how marks can be gained etc. Having said that many teachers I've met seem to think that certain children can only get certain grades. 'He's middle ability, he's a C'. I think our system is to blame. I am not saying teach to the test but if you see GCSEs as the key to further study or a job it's worth trying to think outside of the box and your child getting as high grades as possible. Especially if things don't seem to be going well.

Oh good grief, I missed that she is in Y4.

You are being a bit ridiculous OP, sorry.

My ds1 progress slowed to a halt in yr 4 but because he was "at the expected level" it was "ok" that he hadn't gone up a level
It wasn't ok to me though, I personally can't stand the idea that because they are an "expected" level, they do not need to try and push them further.

Having a happy child with a good self-esteem is all that really matters.

Very interesting discussion here all.

First of all Indigo - please look at Table 1c of the KS2 to KS4 results - this is the nub of the matter.

For girls - attaining L4 KS2 and expected progress KS4 in English has been above 70% since 2007/2008. so 70% girls attain a C or better at GCSE if they attained a L4 at KS2 SATs.

In maths for girls - the result is slightly lower - 59% 2007/2008 rising to 66.7% 2010/2011 attaining C or better GCSEs in KS4 from a L4 KS2 on SATs.

So in fact roughly 2/3rds to 3/4s of girls attaining a L4 go on to attain a C or better. (1/4(25%) to 1/3 (33%) attain less than the C - not 50%).

I think many have raised some very valid points:

*Too much reliance on innate ability - not hard earned skills (through repeated practice)

*Frequent unclear explanation of what a child should be working on at home

*A culture in schools (where they are stretched to be fair) of doing just enough (get everyone to a L2 in KS1 and don't worry about stretching more able children, for example - also plays into to CVA scores KS2 to go from L2 to say L5. It seems to be an acknowledged way of playing the system).

What I find interesting/ unexpected is that children who do well more often or not are helped - and that quite often is taking place at home. There are many silent partners in teaching.

I still maintain it is a triangle and rarely an equilateral one. However, in general what I do see is a low aspiration toward effort. There is a general antipathy to working children too hard. Let them be children. To a certain extent I commend that but when many children spend more time watching tv (which fair enough at times can be educational - e.g. horrible histories) than reading/ doing homework regularly, one can see that ultimately 'learning' or 'developing skills' (and that can include dance, sports, swimming, etc...) are given lower priority.

You reap what you sow.

Just read that she is in year 4. How can anyone predict GCSE grades with any degree of accuracy from the work of an 8/9 year old child?
If you are unhappy with the progress she has made this year then help her over the summer holidays. I used Bond maths with my son at the end of year 4 and by the end of term one year 5 he was at level 5c and at the end of year 6 on level 7c.

I am regularly ridiculous though so please don't take that comment personally

I once found a selection of degree courses that ds might want to do in the future, which some might suggest was a little premature considering he was in Y4 at the time

Fun and engaging with an expectation of progress every year? The cunts!

You sound bonkers, and I feel sorry for your child who came out happy and pleased with herself only for you to get all mardy about it.

She's in year 4 ffs.

I agree with the sentiments on this post, in particular Indigo's and Cortina's.

We do as a country have low expectations of ALL students, low-middle and high achievers. We rely hugely on the high achievers being the "bright, self motivated" brigade, which often translates into "bright, self motivated parents with a huge and very deep pocket!".

Yes, absolutely all those competition winners in our schools and in many cases those that go on to sports and academic scholarships at independents often equate to "bright, self motivated parents with a huge and very deep pocket!". Yellowhouse you are correct.

Indigo I completely agree. I want my children to do well academically and sometimes that means working hard when they don't want to [shrug]. I think there is a complete fear of 'pushing' in this culture (or maybe it is just Mumsnet!) which is silly as most children can do above and beyond what some schools expect. I have had mothers who grimace and say 'poor dd2' when I tell them she isn't home from school most nights until 6pm (she's 9), after prep and orchestra/sports clubs. She loves it, is thriving, is lovely and well balanced and her confidence is through the roof - she isn't the best academically BUT she has very high aspirations and so do her teachers (and me!).

I feel for you I really do.

When I was at school, the expectation was that you'd get a handful of GCSEs, maybe some As if you were clever. If you were very clever (and middle class, probably), you might do 2 or 3 A Levels and might go to university, otherwise it was leave at 16 and work your way up as a hairdresser, brickie, shop assistant...

Maybe it's just on MN, but we seem quite fixated on pupils getting dozens of As and A*s, and anything else is a "failure".

ah, ok she is only in year 4. I do think workign hard is important at this age but they do need to have fun - I actually don't know what levels if any my year 4 dd is (but she came third from top in the maths test if that helps!!)

I'm struggling with this at my DSs school just now, he has some SEN but as he isn't failing they are delighted, the fact that he is capable of so much more means nothing to them, they're just not bothered, i'm sure as soon as he starts dragging their average down they'll step in, it's a far cry from the every child matters that they keep spouting.

I agree with Indigo too often DCs can be told mediocre is OK. I think though that people confuse a DC doing their best as always getting As and A*s. What is important is a DC realising their potential. The OP mentions that her DD was tested as being in the 98 percentile so she can surely be allowed to expect her DD to do well (all other things being equal). I have 2 DC of differing abilities if my eldest had gained a C grade for english or maths we would have been mortified as we both knew that she was capable of more. However when my youngest got C grades for english and maths the champagne corks were popping as we knew how hard he had worked to get those grades. Both had realised their potential but had achieved very different grades.
My eldest as part of a university outreach programme has been a TA in a local academy. She has been surprised as what the DCs are expected to achieve. One class are doing a GCSE course a year early and predicted grades were C and below with one A/B. My DC asked why they were doing it a year early when they only had those predicted grades the teacher said it meant they could do more GCSEs. What happened to quality over quantity?
Jenai Maybe the posters on mumsnet have high expectations of their DC and also of course more importantly mumsnet is not a cross-section of society so that would skew the comments.

A year 4 child isn't 'on track' to get anything in his or her GCSEs, anyway.

Oh that quantity thing irritates me, going. I'm confident that the school ds is going to aren't that way inclined, but one of the ones we considered seems fixated on getting as many GCSEs as possible, and bugger the grade.

I'm not suggesting that things were better in the 80s btw, far from it. Rather, I think our expectations are higher now and that that is a good thing.

A year 4's likely trajectory is there in place. They will be on course for a certain KS2 level - depending on earlier performance - which feeds into the likelihood of them gaining a C or above at GCSE or otherwise. Indigo describes it well up thread. See the current thread on primary on levels for more details.

But their predictions for GCSE grades will be based on FFT figures, year 6 Sats results and results over their time at secondary. A test taken in year 4 doesn't put you on course for anything.

original maybe not directly but there are correlations. Plus if a DC gets used to being told they are doing very well (when they could do better) it can start them thinking that what they are doing is OK and that no more effort is required. So IME underachieving even at year 4 can set the foundations/mind set for lower grades at GCSE.

Original Steaming Nit see this teacher's comment on aforementioned thread:

As a teacher I can say that the chance of your child getting a C in GCSE is significantly reduced unless they achieve a Level 4 in Yr 6.

If you start Y7 with a level 5 the school will likely be pushing towards a level 6 for the correct amount of progress to be made. If you start with a level 3 or 4 you have much more ground to cover and the odds are stacked against you doing as well at GCSE and beyond.

Thanks Cortina!

I know, I have had two children go through primary school (one in year 6) and one has now had her predictions for GSCEs. Both got some less good results in odd tests in years 3 and 4, which have had no bearing on any predictions or results since.

I don't see any reason to assume this child will start year 7 with less than a level 4, if that is what she's capable of.

Our eldest son is in the top group for everything and guess what? I saw his cousin's spellings who started to read 2 years later and is definitely in the bottom group and they are harder and many many more! Her school seems to have high expectations from the children and you can see it from the results. I am really happy about her because it seems that after all she won't stay behind!

Our son's school has been questioned by Ofsted twice about their results and they always put it down to the children's background And BOTH schools have children from similar backgrounds (poor, free school meals, english as 2nd language, from estates etc). But our school always starts teaching everything later than the other local schools I know which have better results because the children "won't be able to understand". I think they underestimate the children's ability a lot!

I completely agree with you.
I'm not suggesting that schools should encourage Asian style excessive work after school but the attitude in UK schools annoy me too.

My daughter has been coasting for Y3 and Y4 and the only response I get is "she's above expected level for her age so don't worry"

Is your dd really finding school fun and engaging? My dd has rarely been enthused about learning at school. (The exception was when they learned about Ancient Egypt and The Tudors) If I asked her, she'd say that her friends were the driving force for going to school and the rest is boring (and sadly necessary)