Teachers, can you spot a difference between kids who use maths websites and those who don't?

[Iamnotminterested]

Am just curious as there seems to be sooo many sites out there vying for parents money and, dare I say it, preying on our insecurities.

Do they make a difference to a childs' classroom ability?
Do they speed up mental maths recall?
Do you recommend them?

Thanks.

Can I hijack this please and add - do they work better than say the Bond books or other similar practice books? I'm reluctant to have DD staring at a screen for ages, as she finds these kind of things that I find irritating strangely addictive.

No you can't, buzz off

I was wondering this as well.

Hope 'people in the know' will be along to help!

Anecdotal and not a teacher but...

DD1 went from working to 3a start Y4 to working to 4a in February.

Teachers said 'It's clear you are doing a lot at home'.

No. I don't notice the difference. I teach year one and the kids that I notice an improvement with are those that do practical maths at home with their adults.

How do you know what to do at home though?

I think on line sites can motivate some children to practise for longer than they possibly would normally. Does it make them better at maths ...not really. I agree the children who make most progress are the ones who know how to apply the quick recall facts they've learnt.

OK... I will answer this as best as I can...

I can tell the difference between children who add to the work we do on class on 'maths facts' (e.g. number bonds, times tables) by rehearsing them at home. However, I cannot tell who does this by playing on the computer vs those who do so using pencil and paper vs those who are drilled on them by their parents - what matters more is that the child is willing to spend some time doing whatever it is, in which case the computer may help some children. The child who has the best times table knowledge, for example, has no access to a computer outside school BUT loves maths and plays maths games with his mum 'for fun' in the evenings.

However, while those maths facts DO help speed up some aspects of calculation, there is not an exact correlation between those children who know maths facts best and who show higher overall ability at maths. So I would say that the type of limited-range rehearsal offered by many sites does not necessarily improve a child's overall classroom ability (though we use Education City in-school and for homework and it can be of more benefit - particularly when used alongside on-paper jottings and workings out - as it covers more of the maths curriculum than purely calculation or quick recall.)

I can also identify children who act on a specific area of weakness (e.g. I have one child who was less confident with subtraction) by using the specific on-line and pencil-and-paper activities I might set them for personalised homework. However I might not notice the difference in all the class if I set all children the same work, because not all have the same weakness IYSWIM.

I suppose what I'm saying is:

• The many free on-line games which focus on quick mental recall of facts CAN improve these, but not over and above pencil and paper or verbal work - they just may be more motivating and the child may be willing to work for longer.
• The greatest benefit may be where there is a defined area of weakness which the child can concentrate on for a short period and get more rehearsal than might be possible in the classroom.
• In general, most on-line sites concentrate on mentall recall (I wouldn't pay for this as there are so many free games around) and on calculation (be careful as some methods used on these sites may differ from the school's calculation policy, so may do more harm than good if a child is struggling). They therefore wouldn't improve a child's 'overall' maths ability necessarily.
• If paying, look for full curriculum coverage, covering shape, space, measure, data handling etc if you want to make a difference to your child 'overall' knowledge of maths.
• For children who are struggling, and therefore really need more teaching, and also may need to use physical manipulatives as opposed to virtual ones, remember that an online site is likely to be merely rehearsal and may not make a huge difference.

Wow, thanks for answers so far.

mrz "I agree the children who make most progress are the ones who know how to apply the quick recall facts they have learnt".

Does this imply that the ones who cannot do this quickly do not make as much progress? Surely a good memory for rote learning of bonds/tables etc means that that child has a good memory, as opposed to the child who maybe does not have the instant recall but still has the application but is therefore deemed to be "Not good at maths"?

No it means it is no good knowing times tables or number bonds if you don't know how to use them to solve a calculation

Ah, I see.

Are we supposed to be doing stuff like this then? I don't do any additional Maths activities with ds (yr3).

In reply, I would re-state
"However, while those maths facts DO help speed up some aspects of calculation, there is not an exact correlation between those children who know maths facts best and who show higher overall ability at maths."

The thing is, faced with a calculation like
200 - 134

A child who has good knowledge of number bonds and can apply then will go (using finding the difference as an efficient method of subtraction):
4 + 6 = 10 so it is 6 from 134 to 140. As I know that 4+ 6 = 10 so 40 + 60 makes 100, it's 60 more to 200. Answer 66.

A child who does not knoiw number bonds, but knows how to find the difference using a number line, will use pencil and paper to count up 6 to 140, then count up in 10s to 200. It will reach the same answer but is slower.

Equally, faced with 27 x 4, a child who knows times tables will go:
2 x 4 = 8 so 20 x 4 = 2 x 10 x 4 = 80
7 x 4 = 28 so the answer is 108

(A child who understands numbers well may just say '25 x 4 = 100, 2x4 = 8 so the answer is 108)

A child who does not, but understands how to multiply using repeated addition on the number line will do 4 jumps of 20 followed by 7 jumps of 4 (or 4 jumps of 7), potentially counting up in 10s or 4s or even 1s each time.

Again, knowing a method of calculation is good, but it is most powerful when coupled with a good knowledge of number facts.

Sorry, x posted

I have no idea how I begin to teach this.

I can teach letter formation and reading.

But number bonds etc just goes over my head.

How on earth do I begin to teach this?

Mrsoteer, Do you need to? Have the school asked you to do something? Do you home ed?

Otherwise just play lots of board games, count things, read house numbers (fun because of the odd and even numbers), number plates ('who can see the number plate with the highest number on ... or where the digits add up to the highest number...which has a hundreds number on it....'), do lots of cooking, share things out fairly. 'help' to measure for any art or DIY projetcs ... and keep talking about what you are doing.

A number bond ius just an addition fact - 'how many more to make 10' is a really useful thing to know, but the whole 'you've got 4 Easter eggs, if Granny gave you 1 more how many would you have then?' discussion leads up to them.

number bonds are amounts to ten

use sweets

give child 5 sweets - how many more needed for 10.

repeat:
1-9
2-8
3-7 etc.

let child eat sweets

My DS just could not remember the number bonds. Took 2 years!!
He is however 'above average' in Maths and always has been. Some children can find other ways of working things out. These problem solving skills will help with their maths.

My DS uses Friv.com. there are also other sites, Moshi Monsters etc which all have fun 'games' but help with literacy and maths.

I have no idea if these children make more progress. I would say no because my DS literacy is still behind average - I think he learns skills but it hasn't affected his actually abilty iyswim?

I'm jumping ahead tbh teacherwithtwokids.

DD1 will start reception in September. I want to able to support her schoolwork at home.

We read lots of books and she can write her name and the alphabet.

But the maths aspect scares me.

Thanks for the suggestions, I really appreciate them as they are things I can easily do with her.

I looked at this thread as I was hoping, a website may be able to pick up the bits which I will not be so good at

I find an excellent way to support their learning at home is to help out in the classroom. You get to see how they are taught & what they are working on, and what approach they are supposed to take. What the "learning objective" is. It makes it much easier to help them understand homework or to casually point out when they (or you) have to use those same skills to solve a real life problem. Simply cannot beat helping out.

This is for mrsrotter

I don't think you need to sign up to on-line learning or start with books right away. Let your DD settle into school and give yourself some time to appraise what they are doing with her and whether you need to help or not. It may be that maths is a strong point at her school and she's getting all the support she needs there and all you have to do is provide a place for homework, a snack and a pencil & rubber.

In the meantime here are some websites to start off with...

BBC Learning website: KS1 maths games/ ideas: www.bbc.co.uk/schools/teachers/keystage_1/topics/maths_ks1.shtml

BBC Learning maths topics with age appropriate info to help chose: www.bbc.co.uk/schools/teachers/keystage_1/topics/numeracy.shtml

crickweb has all sorts of great games - so if there is an area your DD is struggling with try looking here: www.crickweb.co.uk/ks1numeracy.html and info specifically for reception year: www.crickweb.co.uk/Early-Years.html

when your DD is in Y1/ Y2: BBC Bitesize KS1 has a number of good free on-line maths revision games for KS1: www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/ks1/maths/

sparklebox has all sorts of great resources for the full curriculum, including maths: www.sparklebox.co.uk/maths/#.T4byXlHy8l4

If you are finding that your DD isn't progressing (can't add, can't subtract, hopelessly confused by verbal problems in late Y1 or Y2) - then by all means yes start looking for solutions but do bear in mind that there is no one solution.

HTH

mrsotters child isn't even in school yet

and please, please, please don't visit the Sparklebox site every time you do you generate income for a twice convicted paedophile!!!!

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8462650.stm

teacherwith2kids:

All I will say is that as a parent turning to mathsfactor gave my child 3 things the school wasn't:

clear explanation of how to technically 'do it' which conformed to current methods/ terminology

opportunity at review, repetition and practice

encouragement (the beauty of video is the teacher is always cheery)

I suspect you are a great teacher and probably do make sure every child in your class understands 10 - 1 is just counting back one (by doing it on paper, showing them to count back on a number line, showing them to count back on fingers, showing them 10 objects and taking one away and counting them all up, etc....).

I wasn't there so I've no idea how it was taught - but I just had a child staring at me blankly when presented with a sheet with simple subtractions of numbers under 10: 10 - 1, 4 - 3, 8 - 6. She clearly didn't get it whatsoever. This was Easter Y2 - not YR, not Y1 - but EASTER Y2. We'd been asking for 2 years + why x or y wasn't happening at our school when it was at other schools in the area regarding maths and had been repeatedly told not to compare with other schools.

For us mathsfactor ensured that those number bonds (more than just what makes 10 or 20, but what makes 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and then applying that to additions/ subtractions with bigger numbers) were thoroughly learned and understood. It ensured that place value and technique were clearly explained and absorbed.

In a school which clearly wasn't putting in the 5 numeracy hours. (or should I rephrase - was wasting their 5 numeracy hours with poorly organised, structured tuition)....

In a school which coped with lack of understanding by simply moving children down a group and giving them easier work....

In a school which offers no additional support/ maths intervention in KS1....

In a school which refuses to offer suggestions for additional support at home (workbooks, on-line games, books, etc...).....

...what do you expect parents to do?

Please do us parents struggling in mediocre to appalling schools a favour by not getting on here and pronouncing 'it shouldn't be done' - I paraphrase.

I personally feel that it would be a travesty to leave primary school unable to add, subtract, multiply and divide. It is quite clear many children (>30%) do at our school - and I'm certain my DD1 would have been in that category if I hadn't intervened and trust me there isn't a day that goes by I don't thank the stars above for discovering mathsfactor which solved many of our issues for DD1.

We do the homework because it's fun and not overkill (just 20 minutes 5 x a week), but given the school's unreliability (homework regular pre-Ofsted and now right off the agenda) please don't blame a parent for wanting consistent, clear and practical maths tuition and seeking it outside if their school is totally failing their child.

I wouldn't dream of getting the kids to do workbooks or worksheets at home, and I don't want them getting particular methods drilled into them via computer games. But every night before bed they ask for maths, so we just do whatever I can think of, unless they ask for something specific.

For the last few nights we have been doing:

"I have a secret number in my pocket. You'll never guess what it is, in a million years. I will give you only one clue....

300 minus my number is 168
or
my number squared is 121
or
my number is the ratio between the circumference of a circle and its diameter
or
my number added to itself is 1024"
etc.