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Primary education

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Original poster

Phonic sounds in because

159 replies

maydaychild · 02/03/2012 15:57

Could one of you wonderful MNetters help me with 'because' as Dd has it in her high freq this week

What is making the or sound and is the e magic
Thanks

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Feenie · 03/03/2012 21:25

I am with mrz - I would hate for other parents to read this thread and believe misinformation. This isn't Chat - it won't selfdestruct disappear in 90 days.

mrz · 04/03/2012 10:18

Thanks WittyTitle that would be great.

MerryMarigold · 04/03/2012 16:07

I thought of a VERY important 'au' that make an 'o' sound: Sausage! I mean who, but WHO calls them SORSAGES?

My ds gets a list of words to learn how to read and spell, probably high frequency. These are not broken down into 'phonic' or not, so they are not distinguished, but you just gotta know 'em whether it is 'dog' or 'because'.

I do think Ms Miskin is on another planet, but anyway...what do I know? Parents get given these books to read with 'red' highlighted words in. We haven't all been trained in the niceties of how to explain to a child that this word is phonically decodable, but they just haven't learned the sound yet - and yet here it is being used in this book before they've learned it...

My ds1 will probably fail the phonics test, despite the fact that due to Ms Miskin he spent the whole of Reception without a reading book because he wasn't 'ready'. I'm just glad he's getting more confident and into reading now that they are not teaching RWI properly anymore! This is a young, very bright, dynamic teacher who has brought the literacy change into being, so I think there must be something in the 'Miskin positive research' that we are not hearing about, because all the other changes that have been made have been very forward thinking.

Feenie · 04/03/2012 16:11

I think a Scottish accent might say 'sausage' as 'sorsage'? I am not good on accents, so am very happy to have someone tell me I am wrong. I have definitely heard it pronounced as such though.

mrz · 04/03/2012 16:13

and a northern accent

Feenie · 04/03/2012 16:14

Not Yorkshire

mrz · 04/03/2012 16:15

We haven't all been trained in the niceties of how to explain to a child that this word is phonically decodable, but they just haven't learned the sound yet - and yet here it is being used in this book before they've learned it...

Which is the real problem

MerryMarigold · 04/03/2012 17:10

Well of course it is. What's the point of a scheme which is so difficult to teach properly (and has to be taught absolutely properly) that parents can be involved in reading at home without going on a training course. Ridiculous.

MerryMarigold · 04/03/2012 17:11

sorry, that parents CAN'T be involved

mrz · 04/03/2012 17:16

It's very easy to teach properly MerryMarigold that's why it's been around for hundreds of years and parents can be involved and most are.

EdithWeston · 04/03/2012 17:17

Phonic reading schemes are very straightforward really.

It is unfortunate that teachers are giving explanations which is leading to the totally misplaced conclusion that it is the scheme which is at fault, not the shoddy and inaccurate "explanation".

mrz · 04/03/2012 17:18

but they just haven't learned the sound yet -
yet your child's school has sent a book home containing that sound

MerryMarigold · 04/03/2012 17:30

Yes mrz if it is a 'red' word like 'because' but they haven't had 'au'.

This thread proves the point that the whole 'red words' thing is NOT clear or easy to teach and certainly hasn't been communicated well to teachers let alone parents.

mrz · 04/03/2012 17:33

Then the school shouldn't be sending the book home MerryMarigold!

They should be teaching your child first before sending anything home to practise!

No this thread proves that some schools are teaching phonics badly!

maizieD · 04/03/2012 18:00

Parents get given these books to read with 'red' highlighted words in. We haven't all been trained in the niceties of how to explain to a child that this word is phonically decodable, but they just haven't learned the sound yet - and yet here it is being used in this book before they've learned it...

I have to say that I am absolutely with you there, MM.

I have argued about the inclusion of these 'high frequency words' a number of times with SP programme writers, but they just say that they are useful words for the children to know as using them makes decodable text less 'stilted'. Personally I'd go for stilted text so as to avoid all the confusion and misconceptions (and misteaching). After all, early reading scheme text is hardly very natural or exciting, whether it be Look & Say (ORT) or decodable.

I think that many schools do try to involve parents and explain to them how SP teaching works, but if the teachers themselves don't really know what they are doing they are not going to be able to explain it to the parents

mrz · 04/03/2012 18:13

The problem is maizieD the alternatives aren't taught until Y1 (or even Y2 in some schools) so children wouldn't be able to read or write I, he, she, me, we, you, they, the, was, saw, said etc until they go into KS2 unless they are taught. They can be taught quite easily without needing to learn by sight if teachers are sensible.

MerryMarigold · 04/03/2012 18:59

"They can be taught quite easily wihtout needing to learn by sight if teachers are sensible."

If it's that easy, why are they not taught early on in the phonics programme then, and included in it, rather than expecting teachers to go outside the programme and teach the 'red words' as sight words. To be honest, I can't remember exactly how it was explained to me at the session we had on the school's programme when they were still doing RWI, but what I retained was that the 'red words' are ones without rules, or that is how to explain them to a child who is trying to read 'he' phonically with the skills they've got up to ie 'heh'.

mrz · 04/03/2012 19:02

They are taught early in most schools MerryMarigold as words with "tricky" sounds.

mrz · 04/03/2012 19:07

As people have been trying to point out throughout this thread the "red words" aren't intended to be taught as sight words and schools doing that aren't teaching them correctly.

MerryMarigold · 04/03/2012 19:24

"Tricky sounds" does make more sense to a parent than 'red word'. But basically, as a child, what you have to do to learn that word before you understand the tricky sound, is to learn it by sight. I don't get the difference between knowing that one day you will learn that tricky sound and learning it by sight anyway.

mrz · 04/03/2012 19:30

No you have to be taught which bit is tricky and what sound it represents

so in he the e isn't the same as in hen but represents ee
once you know that you can read he, she, me, we, be so you can read five words not just one.

mrz · 04/03/2012 19:32

and the sounds are only tricky until you learn them unlike the idea that you can only read these words if you learn them all by sight.

CecilyP · 04/03/2012 19:33

Yes, it makes sense to teach them as a group. In which case, why call them red words?

mrz · 04/03/2012 19:35

I don't like RWI ... but I imagine the idea is that that have tricky phonemes so aren't quite as straightforward as the green words.

MerryMarigold · 04/03/2012 20:17

Agree Cecily. If you know the 'tricky sound' and what it looks like, and can transfer to other words, then it's not tricky anymore, no trickier than any other sound.

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