Parents, what do you think about this?

[confusedandconcerned]

I have a 6 year old boy in my class who sometimes disturbs the other children by getting in their space and not leaving them alone. He will make noises right in their face, or follow them around calling them silly names, or sit right next to them, leaning on them, etc.

He obviously does have behaviour difficulties and these are being addressed. When he behaves like this, the teacher or myself (TA) will ask him to stop. If he doesn't we usually ask the other child to move. If he follows the child and continues to annoy them, we give him the opportunity to do something else (a pre-agreed activity). If he still doesn't stop, and as a last resort, I will physically remove him from the room using approved techniques which I have been trained to use. This makes him very angry and he then needs some time to cool down.

Now the headteacher has told me that, instead of removing him from the room, I should ask the other child, the one that he was annoying, to go out of the room for a few minutes. Even if it is during lesson time. I will do this as it's what the head has told me to do, but it doesn't 'sit right' with me.

As a parent, how would you feel if your child was removed during lesson time because another child was disrupting the lesson?

As a parent of 3 DC, I'd be okay with them being removed from the situation, as it reflects what I ask them to do if they have a problem with someone being horrible to them....walk away from them.

I also hope to raise 3 empathetic, sensitive children who wil have some understanding that not everybody finds life as easy as they (generally) do.

Is is a village school you work in? What's your experience of/training in working with SEN children?

They are being taken out for a few minutes. And they will understand why. I'm a bit surprised by the responses on here.

Have you discussed it with the class teacher OP?

Is he also supposed to recognise that he needs some 'time'? Because that in itself is a big ask...

Why hasn't the school referred him?

It doesn't matter how you dressed it up - my DD would come home complaining about the unfairness of it

Heswall good point. If the other child refused to leave the room I would not remove them but I would probably have to remove him. It's a horrible situation to be in.

The hitting, about once or twice a week, not always the same child, just anyone who annoys him. He punched a girl in the side of the head last week because she told him not to touch her buttons. Sometimes it is necessary to remove him.

ballstoit there is no restraint, it's moving a child, not restraining them.

This boy obviously needs a lot more help than he is getting. I speak to SENCO whenever I can but they just say why don't you try this, or that, and I do try everything they suggest but it will take time. I also feel sorry for him and hope he gets some professional help. I don't understand why that's not happened yet. Is it my place to question this? The teacher has tried too but she gets the same answers as me.

I would feel the same as ballstoit, I think. Hard to tell without being in the actual situation, knowing specific child, etc.

I am that you are not involved in information about this boy's care by your SMT, though. I cannot imagine that happening at our school - TAs are very important members of the team!

Really? My DD is very understanding of similar.

I'm also surprised that some people are thinking their children would be upset if they were asked to leave the class because of his naughtiness. It doesn't sound like naughtiness to me.

I don't think having other kids leave their lesson is a long term solution, by any means. Too disruptive - as is the current situation. But as a short term 'holding' plan while the boy is assessed/referred/a plan made - I would simply explain it to my daughters. And if they were cross, fair enough - its not ideal, they are allowed to feel cross, I might too. But it still may be the best temporary solution?

Elibean - my DD would be, I'm not saying I would encourage that, but she's one of these annoying children who wants everything to be exactly fair and she would see being taken out of the classroom as unfair when she hadn't done anything wrong.

She's got very fixed ideas on things like that you should hear the moaning if her group gets punished when she wasn't doing anything.

You can always contact the school nurse, she can request a referal to the community paediatrician. If he's on the autistic spectrum then there's certain things at school, like the noise or the lights, which could be triggers for this. He needs assessing.

He is only asked to choose before he gets angry, not when he is angry. I can tell when his behaviour is going to escalate and can usually talk to him before he gets angry.

SENCO thinks he may need to be assessed for aspergers but told me this has to be a referral from his GP. I suppose because his mum said she would organise this, the school haven't taken it any further.

Six year olds are going to go home and tell very confusing stories to their parents, who will then gossip, confusing the story still further.
Pupil confidentiality almost certainly prevents the HT writing to the parents telling them what the OP has told us.
My guess is that the TA lives locally and it is her not the teachers who is going to feel uncomfortable.

School may well be able to get help from the ASD outreach team even if he doesn't have a dx.

Hopefully as you get to know him better you'll get better at spotting his triggers, and get better it defusing things before they esculate.

The school need to take this further. There will be things in school which trigger him off and you need to know what these are. If it's noise then it will help if he's moved into a quiet class etc. You can ask the school nurse for help, his mother's neglecting him by not seeking medical attention for him. If he was unwell she'd have to do this.

I think you could do it carefully. Rather than saying "X go out of the room to stop Y from irritating you" You say "Oh X could you show the lovely picture you drew to Mrs. Z. She'd love to see it". Or "X can you go and tell Mr. B that A has forgotten her gym kit today".

That way you get the segregation and X thinks he's got a wonderful job. I doubt any parent, or even any pupil would realise what you are doing anyway then.

If it's not the same child I'm not sure it's a big issue anyway.

I've a little boy (age 4)who can be a bit like the boy in question though, and whereas I can see removing the other child might help temporarily (have I spelt that right?) I don't think it would help long term, as he needs to know it isn't acceptable. However, if the little lad has issues (I think my ds just thinks he's being funny when he does it and will stop when told usually) it may be more appropriate.

In our area they no longer take referal from school nurse, only GP, so maybe nothing OP school can do.

We took our child out because of a child similar to the one you describe, constant low level distruption and one or two incidents a week, you never knew who was going to be next and of course the children told their parents what went on.
I feel for you OP the school we left had their hands completely tied, in the end the mother met a new fella and left, the sigh of relief was heard across town.

Thing is, a dx of ASD won't bring any help with it. The school will still have the same boy and the same problems.

They don't need to wait for a dx to do everything they can - the dx is unlikely to help them at all.

(The only exception being that in some boroughs the ASD team only work with diagnosed children)

Doing it through the GP is in my area anyway, the slowest way to do it, they refer to the school doctor who refers onwards to the community paediatrician. It's much easier and easier to get a doctor to listen to you if it's done through the school.

The ASD outreach team, again, I can only speak for my area are usually quite happy to work with suspected but undiagnosed children.

quicker and easier, cos easier and easier means nothing, lol

No, I don't live in the same town and don't socialise with any parents at the school, so that's not a concern. It's just really difficult seeing what some children have to deal with day in, day out. Stuff that we, as adults, would not put up with. I know that parents would not be happy about it. But they are coping really well and are a lovely class, all of them.

I have had some ASD training and we do use lots of strategies and resources to help children. But I do feel that, in this instance, the whole class are not receiving the education they deserve because of all the disruption and interruption throughout the day. Not the boy's fault, he's only 6 after all.

I am supposed to support the whole class and I feel that I am not able to do that at the moment because this little lad needs a fulltime 1-1 worker. At the end of the day, it all comes down to budgets .

I work in a very specialised, Ofsted Outstanding EBD primary school. We have full OT, SALT, EP and psychiatric support. We are part of a cutting edge university research programme which is developing a new intervention.

We physically handle children every day, where necessary, to make sure that they are in a space that meets their needs. This can either be handling a child into a low sensory space that they need (but don't want to go to) or handling them into an activity they don't think they can start (but we know they can, or at least are ready to try). This is in no way done brutally. It's part of daily, good, supportive practice. It is ALWAYS the intention that the child will learn to control and manage themselves, but on the road to that eventuality often adults have to be in control.

Handling a child from one space to another to support them and meet their needs in a planned way is not unusual is special education. Just because this child doesn't have a statement doesn't mean he doesn't need one. There is no way anyone on this thread has enough information to comment on what is right and wrong in terms of the management of this child or what he needs.

OP you really need to raise your concerns with the SENCo and the LEA behaviour service if necessary.

um. you asked for the views of parents of nt children. in the classes where my nt children's learning has been compromised because of lack of support to an sn child, i have campaigned vociferously for the sn child to be given adequate support. and encouraged every other 'nt' parent to formally request the same to the ht.

it's amazing how quickly money gets found for sn children when 29 parents complain, rather than the one poor sod whose child needs it. it gives the ht a lot more ammunition to approach the lea for 1-1 funding.

school need to be on the blower to mum every week chasing the gp appt. and if mum refuses, then eventually they need to go via ss to approach her. this kid is going to be let down enormously if this is allowed to drift along.

that said, i agree wholeheartedly with dewe's approach. that's how i would be doing it in the interim. as well as continually discussing with the senco and ct whether any other options exist for advice. ed psych? area inco if the senco is out of her depth? asd outreach?

outofbodyexperience I haven't heard of that term before, what are 'nt' children?

I will speak with SENCO again as soon as I can. It makes sense for us to communicate directly so that I am fully aware of the plan regarding this child. I will continue to try the new approach suggested by the head.

Thanks for all the suggestions and opinions.

neurologically typical. nt. 'normal'. as opposed to sn.

Listen to EBDteacher and realise its not professional to discuss other people's children on an Internet forum. You are a TA and I would hope you would know to speak to the right people to he this resolved, rather than stirring up a hornets nest... It's a shame.