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Original poster

AIBU - Permission for school trips

89 replies

IndigoBell · 02/12/2011 11:32

Minor complaint alert :)

DS2 brings home a letter about a school trip to the ice rink.

He says he doesn't want to go.

I know he won't be able to skate, because I know he has gross motor skills problems and will not physically be able to do it. I also took him last year and he couldn't do it.

So I send the permission form back, saying I do not give permission, as he won't be able to do it.

School don't know he has gross motor problems, because they don't know what to look for. They haven't taken him skating, swimming, cycling, walking and seen all the problems I have. (But on the form I say 'I don't give permission because he has gross motor skill problems and won't be able to do it'.)

They haven't even realised that the reason his handwriting is so messy is because he can't sit up straight in his chair. (Which really does annoy me - they should have realised this is his problem)

They don't think he has any SEN at all. :)

So, when faced with the permission slip, why does his teacher convince him to go ice skating and tell him he should try?

Was it reasonable for his teacher to talk him into going, without talking to me about my concerns?

Now I feel like I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Nothing bad will happen if he goes ice skating, he just won't be able to do it, and an adult will have to sit off rink with him. School probably won't even believe he can't do it, they'll just think he was mucking around.

But nothing good will happen either, and he'd be better off just staying at school and doing absolutely anything else.

AIBU?

OP posts:
tethersjinglebellend · 02/12/2011 13:48

yy, an email would be ideal- everything will be in writing then.

mrz · 02/12/2011 16:44

The teacher should not have persuaded your son to go. If anything she should have contacted you to discuss things if for example she knows there will be plastic penguins on the day. I have to say my son would have hated this kind of trip and would probably have spent the day sitting at the side so I understand how you feel.

chrimblycompo · 02/12/2011 16:50

how can they not know he has got motor skill problems

my ds has, he has additional support

sounds a shite school

surely they see him behind in PE, writing etc?

Original poster
IndigoBell · 02/12/2011 17:00

Because if anything's hard for him he mucks around and get's told off for being naughty. And they don't see that he mucks around because he can't do it :(

At 7 they have very low behaviour expectations for him :(

I'm quite gob-smacked they haven't realised his handwriting is poor due to gross motor skills. He's been on a handwriting 'assembly club' in both Y2 and Y3, and neither school / teacher picked up on it.

I'm even more gob-smacked that it's taken me this long to put it all together - but he really is quite challenging, and I've been very pre-occupied trying to sort out DS1 and DD.

Me and DH have had 'concerns' about him since he was about 3, but it's just taken us a while to work out exactly what is really wrong.

Looking back I've no idea why it's taken us so long Blush except that on top of his dyspraxia type problems he also has a lot of ASD symptoms.

We've been through the NHS with DS1, and tried to go through the NHS with DD, and just could not face going through the NHS with DS2.

There is only so many times you can say to school that you have concerns, and they say they have none, before you look like a very incompetent parent :(

Also I work, so don't speak with school very often, and when I do speak to school it's normally something important about DS1 or DD.

OP posts:
mrz · 02/12/2011 17:03

There are a huge number of children with motor skill difficulties and very very few who have additional support. Two thirds of my class are behind in PE and writing none have additional support and one most certainly would be unable to participate in the type of activity Indigo describes in her post.

Wellthen · 02/12/2011 18:19

The actual issue - its a 'treat' trip therefore they have no grounds for making him go. If it was educational they would. Say you don't want him to go and will send him to school to spend the day with the year 4 class.

However, aside from that...

"I have spoken to the teacher 3 times this year about my concerns, but she doesn't have any concerns."

"In the 3 times I've spoken to them I haven't mentioned concerns with gross motor skills, because I've only just realised that is his major problem.

"So I've only just realised how bad his gross motor skills are (which is why I took him skating last year). And I don't mind that school haven't noticed."

"They haven't even realised that the reason his handwriting is so messy is because he can't sit up straight in his chair. (Which really does annoy me - they should have realised this is his problem)"

I'm sorry, I dont mean to flame or be a horrible person but you're either very confused or lying. I think you over exagerated your first post to get sympathy and then had to back track because the idea that a teacher who spends every day with your child (teaching PE? Seeing him run around the playground? Seeing him go from sitting to standing on the carpet and on a chair?) would not notice 'how bad' his problems are is ludicrous.

I think your claim that they are not taking the statemented children is an out and out lie. How do you know who is statemented? Why on earth would they not take a child who has a statement for their speech for example?

It sounds to me like your son does not have the problems you describe but, for whatever reason, you want to make out that he does. As some posters have said, many children might not enjoy skating. If this is the real reason you dont want him to go then say so, dont hide behind SEN

mrz · 02/12/2011 18:26

A child with a statement for their speech?

Original poster
IndigoBell · 02/12/2011 18:32

That is bang out of order and really rude.

You appear to know very little about SEN. And even less about gross motor skill problems.

OP posts:
Feenie · 02/12/2011 18:38

I think your claim that they are not taking the statemented children is an out and out lie. How do you know who is statemented? Why on earth would they not take a child who has a statement for their speech for example?

Strong stuff to accuse someone of on an internet forum - with little or no evidence. Indigobell is a regular poster with integrity. I've never known her to be untruthful.

MigratingChestnutsOnAnOpenFire · 02/12/2011 18:40

well said Feenie

Original poster
IndigoBell · 02/12/2011 18:43

I'm not sure why you don't know who has a statement, as the fact they have their own TA is normally a dead give away.

But as a governor I also know exactly how many statemented kids there are in the year, and the broad category of their difficulties. I've also sat through some very heated governor meetings where we had to discuss whether or not we could take kids on a school trip when it might pose a safety risk.

All trips are treat trips. Nothng can only be learned by travelling off site.

I'm not saying his difficulties are massive and significant. I'm only saying they're bad enough that he won't be able to ice skate.

I naively thought the point of a permission slip was to give permission - or not.

OP posts:
Sparklingbrook · 02/12/2011 18:44

Are you any nearer a decision Indigo?

moosemama · 02/12/2011 19:29

Wellthen, it is totally believable that a school could/would not see gross motor skills issues in a child.

My own ds's problems were completely overlooked throughout infant school and not recognised until he went for an OT assessment as part of his ASD assessment at the age of 8.5.

It turned out that he has hypotonia in his upper body, particularly badly in his core and shoulder. This means that he cannot comfortably sit to write or get the even flow of shoulder to arm movement required for cursive and joined up writing. No one addressed his writing problems at all in school until I had him referred for ASD assessment with a paediatrician, via my GP and forced their hand. He had always just been labelled as a wriggler with bad handwriting, who was bad at PE, but no further thought was ever given to it. Mind you, they also failed to notice he was autistic and repeatedly told us there was nothing to worry about. Hmm

As for not taking out the statemented children, this is also possible, if having done a paper risk assessment, the children who have statements would be deemed at risk if they went along. Indigo would be well placed to know this via her position as a Governor and as an observant parent whose own children have SENs.

tethersjinglebellend · 02/12/2011 19:53

moosemama, unfortunately the DDA is quite specific about this; the onus is on the school to take steps to make sure the points on the risk assessment are met.

The school cannot not take students on trips due to their SEN, even if their SEN presents a risk.

moosemama · 02/12/2011 20:00

Ah that's really interesting tethers. There are several children in my boys' school that never go on any trips and I was told that was because a risk assessment had been done that said either it would be dangerous for them, or they would be a danger to other pupils. I am shocked they are that blatant about it then if they are contravening the DDA - I always assumed it must just say they had to assess the risk. Sad

The only thing I can think of is that they must somehow get the parents' agreement that these children shouldn't go, so that they don't kick up a fuss?

tethersjinglebellend · 02/12/2011 20:31

That's awful Sad

Perhaps it is with the parents' 'agreement'.

Original poster
IndigoBell · 02/12/2011 20:31

Tethers - when I looked into the DDA it isn't quite as cut and dried. There are a few cases in which it's acceptable to not take children on trips.

But yes, the parents may well be happy for their children not to go on the trip.

OP posts:
tethersjinglebellend · 02/12/2011 20:40

It is tricky, but the onus is on the school to prove that they have taken reasonable steps to include children with disabilities.

Schools must not treat disabled students less favourably than their peers without justification, and they must plan strategically to increase access to schools and the curriculum over time, including school trips.

The problem is the 'justification', although legal precedents have been set whereby students excluded from school trips due to their medical needs or disabilities have won significant damages from the school.

Essentially, the school should have exhausted every avenue in exploring ways in which students could go on the trip. Simply doing a risk assessment and taking no steps to combat or deal with the risks in in breach of the DDA.

moosemama · 02/12/2011 20:42

Thinking about it, its a bit odd really, because they couldn't do enough to help facilitate ds1 being able to go on the outward bound weekend last year and no-one ever suggested to me that he shouldn't go either, despite my asking the Head directly. Confused

Then again, he isn't a problem in terms of behaviour at school and is very much a pleaser when it comes to his relationship with teachers etc, so perhaps they didn't think he would present them with any problems, so wasn't an issue.

tethersjinglebellend · 02/12/2011 20:49

This is what usually happens- children with behavioural issues become sidelined as schools do not treat them as having a disability; however, if they have a dx of, for example, ADHD, ODD or ASD then they are covered by the DDA.

tethersjinglebellend · 02/12/2011 20:50

I should add that mental health needs are also covered.

moosemama · 02/12/2011 20:53

Ah, now that could explain at least three of the children I'm thinking about. One of them now has a statement and full-time TA, so I guess they won't be able to exclude him any more. The other two are both on the SEN Register and have additional support, but afaik from last time I spoke to their parents, don't have a dx.

Its not right at all is it. Sad

tethersjinglebellend · 02/12/2011 21:05

It really isn't.

I taught for years in a PRU; we had a policy whereby all children went on all trips. I know for a fact that it is possible to take children with behavioural difficulties on trips- and have a good time.

moosemama · 02/12/2011 21:12

I know. Our oldest friend is a mentor in a secondary school behavioural unit with some extremely challenging pupils, yet has successfully taken all the children out on some fantastic trips with no problems whatsoever.

It makes me so Sad that so-called inclusion seems to be anything but in some schools for children who are perceived to be harder work.

lilackaty · 02/12/2011 22:29

I agree that the teacher shouldn't have spoken to your ds. My own ds has huge problems with handwriting and for the first 3 years of his school life, he was sent for gross motor skills programmes as the first step to help. I thought that was normal but I guess not. His class went on an ice skating trip last year and he hated it. I felt so sad when he was telling me about it so I too understand your reluctance to send him. I will say though that they had lots of people who had been hired by the ice rink to help the children so most of them had a great time even though they couldn't skate.