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Primary education

Join our Primary Education forum to discuss starting school and helping your child get the most out of it.

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Original poster

If you asked your 7 year old to take away 6 from 60 in their head......

102 replies

Pendulum · 15/11/2011 13:37

Would you expect them to get the right answer??

I was doing 6 times tables on the way to school with DD. She was stuck on 9 x 6- so I said, well you know 10 x 6 is 60, so just take away 6. Count backwards if you like.

Long pause, then.....

"13". Worst thing is, it wasn't a blind guess- some process of deduction had been applied!

I am a bit suspicious of her school's maths teaching already (I am drilling her on tables because they don't seem to be teaching them this term), but would you say this is particularly poor?

OP posts:

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Oblomov · 15/11/2011 20:15

Schnitzel, i went to Y3 parents evening last night, they told me they are doing change. if you spend £2, what change do you get if the item costs £1.35.
She told me that all the children are struggling with pennies, decimal points i.e its fine if you ask them to write £1.70 or £3.90. but if you ask them to write ' 4 pounds seven pence, then can't get that its £4.07. Its the .03/.09 thats defeating them.

muffinflop · 15/11/2011 20:23

schnitzelvoncrumm I'm realising the same thing! I didn't realise he knew stuff he wasn't 'supposed' to know yet

mrz You mean not even you can crack them???

Mytholmroyd · 15/11/2011 20:23

My 5 year old DS just took about 10 seconds to answer this correctly first time. He is my fourth child and has always "got" numbers in a way the other three - all girls - just didnt - he is much more interested in the underlying logic and order maths has.

He does maths for fun - we keep him still and quiet in restaurants etc by setting him sums - he views it as a treat! and clearly gets a big kick out of getting it right. He can do simple fractions and multiplications (4x5, 3x7, 10 x 100 etc).

DD3 gets very upset because he is much better than her!

post · 15/11/2011 20:23

Mine just did 60 - 6 ok, she had to think for about 10 seconds, but had no clue what 9x6 might be.

TheOriginalNutcracker · 15/11/2011 20:29

My nearly 9yr old ds would struggle, but then he is currently having issues with maths. He insisted last week that 3x5 and 5x5 gave the same answer.

Now if you'd asked him to name all 11 doctors from Dr Who, then he'd have had no problem

PastSellByDate · 15/11/2011 20:30

Hi Pendulum:

You're actually asking two questions. But first, I'm assuming your 7 year old is in Year 3, rather than year 2.

Subtraction. I think that by Y3 they should be able to take 1 - 9 from numbers up to 30 with confidence, ideally to 100. However, it's quite clear my DDs school doesn't believe that. Perhaps other teachers out there might like to venture a generalisation about whether a child in month 2 of year 3 should be able to subtract 1 - 9 from any number up to 30?

Multiplication. If your 7 year old is in Year 2 - many schools take the view that they will only teach multiplication for x2, x5 and x10 in this year. I can see how with younger 6 year olds that may be all that can be achieved, but certainly our school refused to teach anything beyond this to children who had already mastered x2, x5 and x10. Again, I'd love to hear what other teachers are doing in Y2 elsewhere.

So my answer is that at 7 (presuming just 2 months into year 3) it is disappointing that your DC couldn't subtract (with or without fingers) - but possibly not surprising that they didn't know their x6 table yet.

Again - I'd love to know what teachers out there feel about this. As a parent I'm astounded that our DDs' school has just sent out a homework ladder with practice/ revision in multiplication tables to x10 all the way up to Year 6. When I asked about it, I was told 'many children haven't mastered all the times tables by year 6'. Is this the normal approach? Do most primaries think it unususal to have mastered times tables to x10 (possibly x12) by year 4?

Pendulum - I'm with you. Keep pushing at home. If you wait for it to happen at school, you may be waiting a very long time indeed. If you are worried about speed of mental arithmatic for simple addition/ subtraction I heartily recommend Tux of Math Command - an open source free educational video game based on Asteroids whereby sums come down the screen and you blast them away by typing in the right answer. It can be set to whatever skill level desired and you can select specific problems - adding to 5, adding to 10, multiples 2, multiples 3, etc... all the way to fractions. You can find out more and download the programme from here: tux4kids.alioth.debian.org/tuxmath/

redskyatnight · 15/11/2011 20:52

Asked my Y3 DS and he was able to do this without too much trouble. Though he also knows his 9 times table. His school seem to expect them to learn all their tables (through to 12) in Y3 - interested this seems like a high expectation compared to others.

Kardashianw · 15/11/2011 20:55

No chance! An he would have a massive tantrum to go with it if he got it incorrect!!!

CardyMow · 16/11/2011 01:22

DS2 is 7yo, Y3. He can do his 2,3,4,5,and 10 times tables. He is behind most of his class and is in bottom set for maths, he has SN. He could get the answer to this by doing 10x6 and then taking away six if I told him to do it that way. Though he doesn't know his 6,7,8 and 9 times tables yet, we are working on it.

They DO teach maths in some rather ODD ways though. Was doing long multiplication with my 9yo DS1 yesterday, and they have been taught to do it in such a long winded way. And as for the 'grid' method of multiplication...Well, even DS1 says he can do it in his head quicker. They seem to teach the most long-winded ways possible to do the sums, rather than just TEACHING them to do it in the most efficient way possible, IMO.

Iamseeingstars · 16/11/2011 01:48

A lot of schools do not put enough emphasis on tables. The earlier they learn them, the earlier they can move on to more advanced maths, and understand what they are doing.

Too many children in Year 4,5,6 etc do not know their tables so therefore struggle with all the other maths they need to do.

I would always encourage children to be taught at home, but taught in a way that they understand exactly what 6 x 5 means or 3 x 10. It is all very well to rote learning but then give a child a problem and they dont understand unless they can physically understand the concepts.

To answer the OP question, yes my child could, but the school did encourage learning all the tables in year 1 and 2 and it has really paid off now.

cory · 16/11/2011 07:34

Dd could have done it at that age, ds couldn't. Same school, different children.

blackeyedsusan · 16/11/2011 07:54

dd: "ah I rembrer, 40, 50, 54" still working on pronunciation though!

Catsu · 16/11/2011 08:12

Just asked my ds. He is in yr 1 and just turned 6 yo
He said 55 after counting backwards which I thought was a very good try!! Then we worked out it was 54 together.
He is better at maths than other things though!

Canella · 16/11/2011 08:28

My 7 yr old only started school in September (in Germany) so they're nowhere near doing times tables but I've just asked him and he knew quickly what 60 - 6 was. I think between 6 & 7 is a perfect age for starting school - everything seems much easier to learn.

Iamnotminterested · 16/11/2011 09:20

Iamseeingstars I could have written your post.

I am a bit baffled by all the posters wondering why schools do not teach times tables more; surely it is something to practice at home with your child, in the same way that we all encourage reading at home? Early, secure knowledge of X tables makes other maths SOOOOOO much easier - I speak from experience, I have a year 6 DD who is not as good at fast recall than her 7 year-old sister, and guess who is doing better in class? I appreciate maths is more than the learning of facts, and I am sure DD1 will start to enjoy maths more next year when she is in high school and will hopefully will be doing more of the kind of stuff she likes - shape nets, tesselation, symmetry etc - but the fact is that primary school maths focusses on the learning of x tables, bonds etc.

Practice at home with your children, if they are curious to learn more let them! Who says they can not learn their 7 x tables because "It is not expected in year 2"!

Iamnotminterested · 16/11/2011 09:21

P.s They both got the answer right BTW

maxybrown · 16/11/2011 09:36

chipping - I always wonder that, and I usually work in schools! Many children could do 2 x table by saying 2, 4, 6 , 8 10 etc but wouldn't have a clue if you said what is 2 x 4?

But my maths is apalling, although I get by in life very well, can work sums out very very quickly in my head now. But I do not know my times tables, they just seem to fall out I have always struggled with maths. But I would have to do 10x6 then subtract 6 too I am 35. But I can do things like that now in my head very quickly, which i certainly could not do at school. Actually, maths sends me into a real panic.

Iamnotminterested · 16/11/2011 09:42

maxybrown Exactly! chanting 2, 4, 6, 8, 10 etc is not learning a times table, it is counting in a pattern. Kids need to know them inside out and back to front.

Iamnotminterested · 16/11/2011 09:43

What job do you do?

stealthsquiggle · 16/11/2011 09:49

I ended up getting a book aimed at primary teachers to try and work out how DS was being taught, and I still don't get it. It seems mind-bogglingly over-complicated to me.

I eventually came to the conclusion, and have since had it confirmed by some teachers, that the long-winded "recipe" methods work well for DC (and teachers) who don't really "get" numbers as it gives them something safe and methodical to plod through. DS didn't like it, and almost went off maths in Y2 when he had a teacher who was definitely not a maths specialist, and who taught in this way. As soon as he got back to maths-specialist teachers who were happy for him to do things his own way as long as he could demonstrate that he knew what he was doing (which he always can - numbers are his first language!) then he was off and running again.

witchwithallthetrimmings · 16/11/2011 09:51

my ds could do this (year 2), could also have told you that 6-60=-54 until was told in class this week that in subtraction you always need to take away the smallest number, i am trying not to be precious about this though

stealthsquiggle · 16/11/2011 09:56

"in subtraction you always need to take away the smallest number"

what kind of nonsense is that, FGS? I have a bank balance of £100, and a bill of £150, but that's OK, in subtraction you always need to take away the smallest number, so I will have £50 left .

I think you need to have a word about that one, witch!

Iamnotminterested · 16/11/2011 09:59

stealthsquiggle I showed the column method of addition - how we were taught at school, long ago - to DD2 because she was curious; her reaction was "Oh my God, that's so easy!" They do the step-by-step method or use number lines but I am tempted to say to her teacher can she use the method that she finds easiest, as she clearly understands the place value of the digits used.

stealthsquiggle · 16/11/2011 10:06

To my intense relief, DS's school (independent, so free of the strictures of national curriculum) only use number lines until they are sure the DC understand the concepts, and then move to column addition (or at least that's what DS does and they haven't stopped him ). DS's Y2 teacher turns out to be the exception - at least I am forewarned for when DD gets to that point, I guess. DD(5) is currently attempting a pathetic "I'm not good at maths" approach, which is getting no traction at all whatsoever at home, and I hope it isn't at school either.

wobblyweeble82 · 16/11/2011 10:09

My 7yo would use his fingers to get the answer but wouldn't be able to do it in his head.

We had Parent's Evening last week and the class objectives for Year 3 with regards to multiplications are by the end of the academic year, they need to know their 2, 3, 5, 9 & 10 times tables.

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