If you asked your 7 year old to take away 6 from 60 in their head......

[Pendulum]

Would you expect them to get the right answer??

I was doing 6 times tables on the way to school with DD. She was stuck on 9 x 6- so I said, well you know 10 x 6 is 60, so just take away 6. Count backwards if you like.

Long pause, then.....

"13". Worst thing is, it wasn't a blind guess- some process of deduction had been applied!

I am a bit suspicious of her school's maths teaching already (I am drilling her on tables because they don't seem to be teaching them this term), but would you say this is particularly poor?

Terrible really isn't it? I would say that knowing your times tables inside out is essential knowlege really and should be reinforced all of the time.

Did she explain how she got to 13? It might sound a bizarre answer to us but presumably she's using some logic that makes sense to her, and might be based on some misunderstanding that you can easily clear up?

Can someone tell me what the finger trick for the 9 x table is please - having a dim moment!

My friends 7yo is top in her class at maths. She just got 40/40 in their timestables test (2's, 3's, 5's, 10's). Yet she cannot tell you what 3x8 or 8x3 is?? They do all of the 3,6,9,12,15 etc but not 1x3=3, 2x3=6 I just cannot see the value in teaching them that way?

Mine probably could, but as far as I can see they are being taught to exactly that, they do they times tables to 10 rather than 12 and also do this weird "banana" thing to round numbers to 10 to help with adding and subtracting larger numbers. She gets top marks for maths though....

slinkydog - hold out both hands palm down so you can see all 10 digits

For each multiplier up to 10, press the corresponding finger towards your palm (e.g. for 2 x 9 "hide" your left hand ring finger (as best you can)

The "tens" are on the left of the depressed finger, the units on the right

slinkydog The 9's trick -

Put both hands up in front of you,
If you wanted to know what 3 x 9 is, put your third finger down,
The fingers to the left of that down finger are tens, and all the fingers to the right are units, hence 2 tens + 7 units = 27.

Tis great, and a good one to impress friends in the playground

I didn't know the finger trick either but will be teaching DD9 it when she gets home from school but she probably already knows it as it seems she knows everything at the moment

Wait u til you see the way they add 44+13. 40+10 4+3

they are big on pairs to ten, as I recall (DS is maths whizz and got a bit impatient with all the different methods as he just "got" numbers) - so you would break 60 - 6 down as 50 + (10-6) IYSWIM.

What year is she? DS didn't officially "do" times tables until Y3 and then they were learned by rote and reinforced with practical application - seemed the best way to me as the base "3*7=?" needs to come without conscious thought in order to be useful.

DS would get it right as a simple subtraction and the times table question by using the calculation you tried with your DD. ie doesn't know tables rote. This is ongoing battle at moment as he has learnt to calculate answers before tables so sees no need to be able to chant them.

As a bad parent I wish to blame school for still only teaching them 2,5,10 tables in yr3

Has come over all unneccesarily excited by the finger trick. Never heard of it before. DS will be in awe of mum

Ds1(7) in Year 3. At the beginning of Year, we were told thta 2,5,10 times tables should have been cemented in Year 2.
3,4, and 6 would be taught in Year 3.
So I am assuming thta they are aiming to have it sorted,but by the end of the year, but we are only in the second 1/2 of the first term here !!

Mine could do the subtraction but doesn't know his 6 times tables. I would only expect a 7 yo to know 2, 3, 5 and 10 times tables... and maybe their 4 times tables.

munstersmum DS was like that too (he could work it out, so saw no point in learning by rote) - but we kept pushing the "faster, faster, faster" angle until he gave up and learned them (from a CD)

I've just asked DD: she got it right straight away, and said she did it by using number bonds.

I asked DS1 who was 6 last wk - he got it, but wouldn't know his 6 times tables yet.

I just asked DS(7), very average yr3 maths student, and he counted backwards in his head very slowly and said confidently "55!"
Five minutes Socratic dialogue later we have arrived at a revised figure of 54, and I have nudged him in the direction of using number bonds for this sort of thing.

Couldn't resist it. Dd1 (6, in yr1,) did it counting back on her fingers.

DS (6) did it without blinking (the subtraction and the times tables)...I'm only just beginning to realise that what he's capable of isn't 'normal' for his age.

There are some good games on www.topmarks.co.uk for multiplications. It might be worth getting her to do some for you to see what she is capable of?

Pendu and IAmNot thank you for the 9x finger trick. DS was well impressed.

Stealth might try the speed emphasis or bribery.

Tried it on DS (6.10, Y2).

He said "64".

I said "WHAT? 60 take away 6 is 64?".

He said "Oh. No, I always get those confused. 54."

(To be fair, he was trying to watch television at the time and not giving me his full attention)

He wouldn't have a clue about 6 times tables, though. He knows 2, 10, 5 and 3 so far.

I think 2 out of 30 in my present Y2 class would manage at this point in the year

I think I have completely overestimated what my Y1 son should know, mathematically. Since the summer, I have let him keep the change below £1 if he tells me what it should be - so if we buy something for 72p, or £1.72, or £3.72 he has to say "28p" before the cashier does in order to get his 28p.

I have been doing this not because I am a pushy weirdo, but genuinely because I thought that 6 year old children should be subtracting 2-digit numbers.

I appear to have got this wrong... DS1, meanwhile, can now subtract any two-digit number from 100 in a flash, and can do the difference of two two-digit numbers in a few seconds.

Just when are they supposed to be able to do this, if 60-6 is still difficult for Y2 kids?

My current Y2 class would struggle to add 6 to 60 I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall that just smiles