Really annoyed - local primary does not 'do' visits

[drewsmum]

My DS is starting in reception next year and I have started to look around the schools I would like to apply to. All well and good, have 5 schools to see in the next 2weeks.

However, the primary just down the road from us, in catchment area, has responded to email and telephone requests for a visit to look around with "we are so popular that we don't have to promote ourselves so no, you can't visit". The other reason given was they can't do visits because of staffing levels.

I am thoroughly ticked off by this- if all the other schools can accommodate visits why can't this one? And how precisely am I going to compare this school with all the others to be able to rank it? I suppose what they're saying is if you don't rank it 1st then forget it so why would you even want to look around.

WWYD? Ask to speak to head teacher to have questions answered? Hang out by school gates and ask parents what they think of the school? Would LEA or governors be of any help?

Advice appreciated!

I would never send a child of mine to a school I had not visited - we only have 2 primaries in our small town, I visited both with DD who was 3.5 at the time and asked for her preferences and reasons for them at the end. Actually both schools were really warm and welcoming, I picked the one that the gut feeling picked and which DD said she liked best - haven't regretted it.

A school with an attitude like that deserves a lot of parents making a lot of very rude comments about it in public.

sparkling - can't say I was particularly surprised not to hear back from anyone.

teacher - definitely, sinking to the point of not considering it at all. However, if I do not rank this one, the only one in my catchment area, and instead rank 3 schools that I like but out of catchment (the others I'm considering are way out of area) do I take the chance of getting none of my choices and being placed in closest school that has a place, ie one of the two schools nearby both ranked as worst performing schools in the area...at least the one in catchment has shiny new buildings and a 'Good' Ofsted???

lingle - I know, 'induction' makes it sound like they're running an Army boot camp!

Have you visited the worst performing schools? Because I have known people move their kids from high performing to less well performing, because it provided a better education and was on the "up". Remember an Ofsted report and league tables are always a historical document. That is why MN always recommends "gut feel" (I feel like a soap commercial).

That's a good point mummytime. I think 'gut feel' is v important. (But obviously not if you aren't allowed in )

I always go by 'gut feel' and since this Head won't let you in the only 'gut feel' that I get is that I don't like the school.

tee hee at gut feel.

you're so right - I started my DS1 at my town's least favourite school. Being "on the up" is the best best possible thing for your child. All the staff and parents feel like they are pulling together, it's fab - and possibly even undersubscribed!

Well Drewsmum, have you been granted an appointment yet?

oh, it's been 'induction' at all the schools we've been to. we don't always look around tbh - we move a lot and just look online and do everything by phone or e-mail.

the school are full without your children, so they aren't really interested in showing you (or anyone else) around - i wonder if they are already pretty up to their maximum with sibling places expected for next year? so having any open days or showing prospective parents around wouldn't really be fair, if they decided it was a great school and they wanted a place, but the school already know that they are desperately unlikely to get one? probably fairer to gently palm parents off so that they apply to schools that the children have a hope of getting into?

letting people visit and build their hopes up knowing the kids won't get a place is interesting to ponder. if i was the one showing the parents round i'd be feeling guilty all day! come and see what we've got! (and you can't have....)

Their attitude seems to be all wrong - ie that the purpose of visits is to 'sell' the school, as if you were choosing a house or a holiday or something

I can understand their logic to an extent (ie that they will 'fill up' anyway), but it's unacceptable that a state school closes its doors to prospective parents.

even if they haven't got any spaces to offer? i think i would find it weirder that they carried on touting for trade, knowing they were going to disappoint many children and families.

it's disappointing that you can't have a nosey, but life goes on. take your chance and apply anyway, or if you feel you need to have a look first, or apply to somewhere where you haveba cat in hell's chance of being accepted, then apply to the others.

i actually find honesty in schools and ht's quite refreshing. we did have one ht who told us her school wasn't an appropriate setting for our dcs, so we went elsewhere. if the school are saying 'we don't do visits because we are massively oversubscribed' then that's the situation. talk of calling the local paper is a bit odd.

it reminds me a little bit of that thread where the 'wrong' children (from the 'rough' estate) had places in the nice new school when surely the places should really have been reserved for the nice families from the newbuild estate? they went to the papers too. weird. if a school is full, it's full.

The point is, madwoman, this is the OP's catchment school - it is not a school miles away that she has no chance of getting into. And it is a place for reception that she is seeking - the school is not full already, it has a whole PAN's worth of places to give and if it is the OP's catchment school, then there is a good chance that she has a decent claim on one of those places - and the school doesn't give places, the LA does, so what is the school doing pre-judging the situation?

I agree that in your situation, where you are seeking in-year admissions, then many schools DON'T have places to give - but this is different. When we wanted an in-year admission for DS, there were schools that just said 'we're full' - but for admission into next year's Reception class, no school is yet full....

It might be an idea for the OP to call and say 'you are my catchment school, I live in X road, is the reason you will not let me see round because you know already that you have an unusual number of siblings and I am unlikely to get in?' (and then to corroborate that information through a call to the LA).

oh, i've done my fair share of yr r applications and meeting deadlines we always moved in the summer, and reasonably often knew where we were going to be, so could meet the routine application process.

i'm guessing they know that a good number of places are already filled with siblings (even though the applications haven't been submitted or counted)

i can see the 'everyone has a fair and equal chance' objection, but it sounds as though they are being realistic. we had a school locally at one point which was always massively oversubscribed (just by it's location as well as reports/ experiences etc) and although they did have one open evening for prospective parents, there were no tours during the day or any other 'look and see' opportunity, and the ht made it very clear that they were massively oversubscribed and that the vast majority of catchment applicants wouldn't get a place.

and he was right. the open evening was flooded. about half of the catchment applicants didn't get a place, and there were a lot of extremely upset parents who felt they were being sent to inferior schools (most of which were also rated outstanding etc etc). but really, the parents were told.

it would just be a bit of wasted effort for the op to campaign for an open day, get one, and then set her hopes and dreams on a place, and still not get one. whatever the rights of the parents to look around state schools.

i can see the objections, but i'm not sure that open days and tours would be very helpful. they are already disappointing a great swathe of families. why seek out more to disappoint?

the psychology of school choice is very interesting though. who's to say that by deliberately shrouding the school in a dreamy cloud of secrecy and alleged excellence, they aren't boosting their applications even more? we all want what someone else has got, even if we don't really know what it is?! it's probably very ordinary, and they don't want to damage their rep.

sparkling - nope, anyone surprised? I called again today and the receptionist said there was no room in the diary, and again explained that they 'don't need to promote themselves'.

I can understand maybe if they knew they would be full then they may not see the need to do visits but unless they know they will have 50 children applying who are living in the catchment area with siblings attending the school then surely they can't know that?

And why have all the other schools I've seen been happy to have open days/visits despite also being very popular and oversubscribed?

I asked if I could get a prospectus and the receptionist said I could come in to get one - at least I can get in the front door...! She did however say that they do not have a prospectus for this year; it is in production - 10 weeks into the school term, seems a bit odd, it's not like the start of a new school term is a surprise!

So I know about 4 things about this school now:

1. They do not have a prospectus for this year
2. Their website is (still) non-functional
3. The school appeared in the Daily Mail (!!) 2 years ago as the HT was threatening to call in bailiffs to recoup fees that were not paid by parents

And 4. A teacher that worked there was convicted in early 2011 of sexual incitement of a 13 year old girl, was caught in a police online sting, no indication of any abuse of children at the school, was dismissed from the school before Christmas 2010.

Are they sure they don't need to promote themselves? After what I've found online am even more convinced I want to run far and fast.

Am still going to pursue meeting with head/visit just on principle, as I am really just stubborn (can't let DH see this post as he'll say I've finally admitted it)

have fun!

Send them an email, say that you are sorry that you can't see them for yourself because the only 4 things you have discovered are ............... and could they tell you what qualities make them so popular? I think that you will have to rule them out because having made waves you wouldn't be a parent they want! You may as well have fun thought and keep up the pressure.

"HT was threatening to call in bailiffs to recoup fees that were not paid by parents"

so it's a private school? they must be mad to behave this way then.

I would send an e-mail, enquiring about
a) the number of siblings expected in next year's intake (they will know this)
and
b) the furthest distance admitted from in previous years.

This would at least give you an idea whether they are being obnoxious for good reason, or just on principle...

I do like exoticfruits' idea though :)

(School is identifiable from those 2 pieces of information, btw ... and if I were to say I'm not blown away by the wonderfulness of its Ofsted report I hope you don't mind. It would of course depend what the alternatives are like but I wouldn't be beating a path to its door if you have other good schools you have a reasonable chance of getting in to)

I'm stressed too. We live in a smallish village and the local school has a rave Ofsted (though no, I don't know whether staff have moved on since it was done - must check) and I've spoken to several parents over the last few years who are very happy with the school. Looking at the other, smaller, local village schools has made me realise that our own local primary is pretty good, in fact - but I still can't easily get my head around two years per class. I went to school at a separate infant and middle school, and in the middle school (8-12) there were two classes per year. I think I'd just like DSs to go to my old school. Anyway, I looked at what I think will be our second choice and I'm not even sure I want to put it down now - it has 56 pupils on roll and two classes - KS1 and KS2, and in the KS2 class are 4 years of pupils. I find that shocking - I just can't understand how a single teacher, even an excellent one, can manage to teach effectively across such a wide timespan. Two years, yes. Four??

Sorry, I'll freely admit to not knowing anything about primary education other than having been through what seems to have been a very different system manny years ago. We live in a village surrounded by villages - short of going private (which isn't an option), we have to accept that tiny village schools with mixed age classes are what there is. I sort of wish we lived close enough to a larger primary to have a real choice.

Am shocked at the stuff a business manager does.

Back in my day there were teachers, a dinner lady and a receptionist/secretary.

oops, sorry - that was meant for another thread.

I would say that 4 yrs in the same class isn't good? Do they get around it by having part time teachers in or linking up with other small schools?
I went to a village school myself with 2 yrs per class and loved it but it is a huge shock to the system when you move on to secondary. Imagine the cosiness of one teacher and the same group for so long and having to find your way around a big school with a different teacher for every subject-not easy.

I'd be horrified if our school ever stopped doing visits, though I don't see that the HT has to do all of the visit.. I wish they would get more children involved in fact. I work there, and I wouldn't want parents who hadn't seen the reality of the school to feel short-changed when they come - there are lots of positives about the school but lots of things people might not like about it, and I value that all parents can come at any time and see it warts and all. That way the parent body is very (almost too fanatically) committed to the school.